I Can't Stand Ratcheting Lapbars!
just to be "difficult", (you guys know me by NOW), I *could* argue that this isn't in DIRECT violation of any of the stated rules. I know it violates the "spirit" of the rule to disable the automatic ratcheting.....haven't tried it myself....but I have been on a couple rides, which, like PKI's Racer, seem to ratchet down a bit TOO far during the ride. If you get back into the station and CAN'T "push down, then pull up" on the lap bars, they may be too tight....
Finally, an important note: I certainly wouldn't worry about it while I was having a good time at a park, but hey, this is a discussion we're having while I'm at *work*, not something I'd let affect my good time riding.....it's exceptionally rare that I've been painfully stapled during a ride, and while we ride coasters for the thrill, the PERCEPTION of danger makes them fun, actual danger doesn't....
and in closing, buzzbars to all, and to all a good ride....;)
*** This post was edited by rollergator on 6/28/2002. ***
I myself don't like ratcheting lap bars on woodies. Can somebody tell me why PTC stopped building trains with buzz bars? I would rather have them, as they are easier to check and only lock in one position. And why did Paramount switch from buzz bars to ratcheting ones on some of their woodies? Also, some bars tend to fall down more easily than others, depending on how tight the springs are set. SFA's springs are pretty weakly set, while PKD's are set pretty tight. HP wildcat and Knoebel's Twister are tighter than SFA's, but maybe not as tight as PKD's. The ratcheting ones can actually be painful when locked down too far, as a ride on the HP wildcat may have let me know. But what can we do? Thankfully, some coasters still retain their buzz bars, such as Phoenix! Even Rotting Lumber at SFGAdv still has them!
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rollergator said:
I *could* argue that this isn't in DIRECT violation of any of the stated rules. I know it violates the "spirit" of the rule to disable the automatic ratcheting
I think we're all smart enough to know that altering/adding to (for better or worse) the park/manufacturer's approved restraint mechanism is not a good idea.
Say you've altered the restraint system with a cord, rope, chain, or what have you. Some freak occurance happens, and you're thrown from the ride and hurt or killed. Where does liability fall when the rider has thrown a foreign element into the mix without the park's approval or knowledge? Even if you've only made sure the restraint doesn't move during the ride, you've still changed the design without approval of the park or manufacturer. It would be interesting to see how that scenario would play out from a legal standpoint, but I'd rather not.
Aside - What kind of example are we setting as adults when some of us are actively endorsing this kind of behavior? It's really surprising to me to see these views in a time with so much debate about ride safety and regulation.
I guess I feel the need to express this opinion since I brought the whole bungee cord thing up in the first place. However, I only brought it up as a reference point to the lame extremes people will go to, not to endorse/encourage such behavior.
If a lapbar is stopping you from having a good time, then something isn't right. And I don't think it's the lapbar. Just have fun, and don't sweat it. :)
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"drop rides, not bombs."
*** This post was edited by chris on 6/28/2002. ***
Personally I am a firm believer that Buzzbars are safer than ratchets. The bar is over your lap but dosn't interfear with your ride. The only thing that might be safer for them is two locks instead of one as I have seen buzzbars come up just as I have seen the ratchets come up. I can see the reasoning in a divider (To keep people in their seat area) But there are other ways of doing this also. Concave seats work the same way (SOB) and are not painful to larger hipped riders.
Gator, even if it wasn't against any park or event or club rules, There is in many states like OH, PA and others a rider responsiblity act. That forshadows any one of the previous and basically says that if you are not following the rules of the ride in any circumstance. It's your fault if something happens that normally wouldn't if the rules were followed. Im not arguing here. As I said thrill and airtime is what the name of the game is and it is no fun to get stappled. Virtually all the TR's from the cali con said that Ghostrider was ruinined due to stapleing and that you couldn't avoid it. The ops were instructed to do so, No questions.
Chuck
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
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"drop rides, not bombs."
No surprise here, but I totally agree w/ Chris, especially his last comment "if a lapbar is stopping you from having a good time, then something isn't right. And I don't think it's the lapbar."
Yes, I understand that at times a lap bar, especially in a very low position [aka stapled] can be frustrating or, worse painful, and no one likes that. But for some people there's no gray area. If the lap bar is even slightly touching their thighs, their ride is ruined. Period.
Yes, we all like airtime. There is nothing better than rising up off the seat. But just because one doesn't come up off the seat does NOT mean you are not feeling negative Gs, and its the negative Gs that produce the free-fall sensation we all crave. And yet there are some people who, if their butt can't come up one millimeter off the seat, their ride is ruined. Period.
I'm so glad I'm not one of those people.
Again, Chris said it best: "Just have fun, and don't sweat it."
Moosh - off his soapbox
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N.U.T.S. - National Union of Thrill Seekers! Be a member and tell everyone you're NUTS! [Brought to you by the maker of LoCoSuMo! NOTE: NUTS is not a real club; void where prohibited; your mileage may vary; where's the beef?]
hey, as I said, I've never done it, and don't plan to (tying the lapbar).....I'm all for having fun, I like life too much to risk it in any real way....
It's a *discussion* board.....I'm just throwing it out there for the discussion......but I think you all know me well enough by now to realize that I'll put practically ANYTHING "out there".....
I'm just jealous of all you guys and your GREAT selcetion of coasters.....(I WILL get you back come November, though)....;)
rollergator said:
hey, as I said, I've never done it, and don't plan to (tying the lapbar).....I'm all for having fun, I like life too much to risk it in any real way....
Exactly! Fun but not life threatening.
It's a *discussion* board.....I'm just throwing it out there for the discussion......but I think you all know me well enough by now to realize that I'll put practically ANYTHING "out there".....
Perfect statement, All I was doing was discussing, not dictating. IMHO bars shouldn't have to be tied to keep them from stapling you.
I'm just jealous of all you guys and your GREAT selcetion of coasters.....(I WILL get you back come November, though)....
LOL, You FL bums have all the fun, Cept mayb California.
Chuck
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
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.:| Brandon Rodriguez |:.
http://www.coasters2k.com
My ideal coaster rolling stock is the single position PTC found on rides such as Cornball Express. I personally rank this ride higher than Ghostrider and Raven mainly because of the trains. Are there any rides that go 50+ mph which use these, or is that the cut-off point?
After that, I dunno, there's something about every other type of wooden train I don't like. Gerstlauer's lap bars are pretty good, but the seats are hard as rocks. Morgans are nice and roomy, but the ones with individual lap bars all ratchet down too easily. I've had mixed experience with single lapbar PTC's, they mostly ratchet down too much and with their seat dividers it becomes quite claustrophobic (and I'm not a big guy). Holding the bar up with my leg works, but is a very distracting way to enjoy a ride.
If Gerstlauers would simply add a little better padding they would probably be held in much higher regard than they are.
I'm pretty sure even though the PKI racer has individual bars that it uses a buzz system, I distinctly heard that telling buzz sound as the bars were locked and unlocked a few weeks ago.
*** This post was edited by Fierce Pancake on 6/28/2002. ***
The first ride I took on Legend at SRM this year, when the train came through the first tunnel, the lap bar dropped from Notch #3 to Notch #4, and when we got to the double-up I got my gut slammed so hard into the bar that I nearly blew lunch. Tying that bar into Notch #3 became a matter of personal safety! If it weren't for the action of that double-up, I wouldn't care (on the second half of a double-ride last year I ended up riding Raven in Notch #6 and while it wasn't pleasant, it wasn't awful, either...).
And again, every time I've used a lap bar safety belt I've done so in full view of the platform crew. No complaints yet...!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(edit: No need to sign it twice...)
*** This post was edited by RideMan on 6/28/2002. ***
chris...I *guess* from time to time I lapse into my "ideal" world where personal responsibility is ASSUMED at all times. I do not intend for anyone to take the things I say too seriously, Lord knows I don't. But I do enjoy the banter of intelligent adults surveying the landscape for the "possibilities" that often arise, if only to ponder the what-ifs....
also, watch who you're calling an "adult"....;)
gator - Anything from "aside" down was just general talk, not directed in your direction. All above was speculation on your speculation.
Rideman - So you contend that as long as noone catches you or says anything to you that it's your right to alter the restraint mechanism on a ride? I'm really surprised, as I generally hold the wealth of knowledge you possess and your opinion on such matters in high regard.
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"drop rides, not bombs."
chris said:
gator - Anything from "aside" down was just general talk, not directed in your direction. All above was speculation on your speculation.
Exactly. I always enjoy reading gators post, even if I don't agree all the time.
Rideman - So you contend that as long as noone catches you or says anything to you that it's your right to alter the restraint mechanism on a ride? I'm really surprised, as I generally hold the wealth of knowledge you possess and your opinion on such matters in high regard.
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Pay attention please. Rideman said he always did it in plain view of the operator. Thats with the bar in position, Locked and only there to prevent it from comming down further than they Deem Acceptable.
As rideman stated, On legends Double up the bar dropped about 3 clicks and I came down ontop of it. That was severe PAIN! and blowing your lunch is about the same description I would give of it!.
"drop rides, not bombs."
Chuck
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
Rideman has twice alluded to the fact that having "no complaints" was reasonable justification for his actions. He hasn't stated why there were no complaints: Is it that the ops/park thought it was ok? Were they just not paying attention? Etc, etc. Simply stating that the act was done "in plain view" doesn't mean that it's been noticed or addressed by the park(s). I think that there have been enough examples thrown out on these and other boards of unacceptable behavior at parks that is done "in plain view:" Smoking in line, cutting, etc... If it's cool with the park(s), then my argument is moot. And that's cool with me.
My point is that a guest altering the restraint sytem for any reason (for better or worse, as I've stated) isn't kosher. Adding a foreign element to the system is altering it, and setting a precedent and bad example.
I'm not attacking Rideman's character or anything of the sort, as I hold his wealth of knowledge and opinion on things amusement-related in high regard. Hence, I find it bizarre that such a person would participate in an activity that I find lame (to use my own wording), and that prompted my response.
*** This post was edited by chris on 6/28/2002. ***
Chris, I see your point and even mentioned examples in post before this that basically what you see is what you get. At any park, If a op asked me to put the bar down another notch, I do. I do not however like a bar to choke or injure me during the ride
I do not think it is necessary for parks to run a coaster in that condition. It is true in my opinion that that bar can injure you if it comes down more or durring a moment of airtme landing. A tie should not be necessary period but stronger springs are needed to keep the bar in its set position durring the ride. Even though it is the riders responsiblity to make sure he is riding safely. It is the operators job to make sure that the patrons are following the rules. They make strong enough springs, I know this. Watch one of Thunder Runs lapbars snap up when released!
I really had no problems at Timbersfest all day with the bars on that either. Then came nightime and a ride that just plain went insane. I put the bar at my normal 3 clicks. (Over the lap but not into my body) and by nights end I was holding the bar with both hands getting increadible airtime and everytime despite even holding it, It kept comming down another notch or two and that is holding it. I can't say that PTC's are the only ones that do this, Boss every single trip would come down on the drop off the midcourse, However it did not get painful when the bars on the G trains came down a bit.
Chuck, who is mearly disscusing and respects all the views given as long as they are reasonable. I can really see the pro's and cons of both sides of a tie down. If it is done in a position that was safe to begin with (Over your lap) then fine. I trully understand why. If it is done for a persons carless enjoyment of getting a one click ride that is totally eliminating a safety device then I think that is wrong.
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
I board the PKI Racer (for instance). I pull down the lap bar. I whip out safety belt. Attendant checks bar. I attach strap literally before the attendant moves on to the next seat. Typically the attendant on the other side hasn't even come past yet. If it had been a problem, I'd expect a question ("What are you doing?") or a challenge ("Don't do that.") at the very least. Which, incidentally, would result in compliance on my part; my strap is designed to be very fast, easy on, easy off.
It's also not a common practice with me; I generally limit it to rides where I have had problems in the past.
But short of specifically asking if it's OK (as I do with the video camera), which, given the time constraints is really not necessary (with video there are preparations that have to be made and it takes time to stow the camera if the answer is 'no'. It takes no time to stow the strap) I don't know how else I could clear it.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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