Holiday World brings back deep-fried Twinkies

So, are unions pro Deep-Fried Twinkies or anti Deep-Fried Twinkies?

Interestingly, the new owner of Hostess is Apollo Global Management. Ring a bell, anyone?

Ding Dong(s)!

HeyIsntThatRob? said:
It sucks, but that's the world we are living in. The US worker has to compete with other countries which means lower wages, as well as utilizing technology to make that US worker more productive.

Not sure why we have to embrace the race to the bottom. From an "in the moment" financial perspective I can see where it makes sense. But in the grand scheme of things, you just end up with a whole lot more people who are unable to afford to buy what you or anyone else is producing. Then the wealthy wonder why they're being asked to pay more taxes to support all those people who can no longer afford the basic necessities.

Anyway, it's hard for me to put much of any blame on unions when you see charts like the one presented here. On average, each American worker is earning a heck of a lot more money for their employers than they were 30 years ago, and not really being paid anything more for their effort.

Of course that chart assumes the worker is responsible for the productivity increase. In many cases this is not so. Take the age old example of the man with a shovel being upgraded to an excavator. His productivity has increased tremendously along with the job now being easier on him physically.

My guess was going to be that productivity went up and wages went down because of the death of the unions.

Which inversely means that productivity goes down and wages go up with more unions in places.

How is that a good thing? Isn't that pretty much why this country has next to no manufacturing jobs any more? Being slow and expensive isn't going to get you anywhere.

An all to common stereotype. Unions aren't just for manufacturing and manual labor. Doctors, dentists, airline pilots... just to name a few. These are people whom you hand over your trust for survival. (well maybe not dentists) Jobs which require years of school and tons of money to train for.

Wasn't trying to play into the stereotype, but those doctors, dentists and airline pilot jobs can't exactly go to other countries, can they?

The point was that in places where we have to compete, the unions inhibit that ability.

And the quality/type of job being done doesn't suddenly legitimize it.

Lord Gonchar said:

Being slow and expensive isn't going to get you anywhere.

It might get you obese. Oh, that's some other thread.

Look at areas where unions have gone away ("right-to-work-for-less" states)...labor costs continue to drop, incomes drop, spending drops, and it puts a drag on the local economy. "Jobs" don't happen in a vacuum any more than unions do.

Can unions have a detrimental impact? Yes. So can poor management, and so can investors who want high returns now regardless of the long-term problems caused by draining a company of investment...

Bringing it back to the Twinkies another thing pointed out is the newer product is now about 5% smaller than the older product. From what I understand this was a cost saving measure done before the old Hostess brand went out of business. So its not like its just labor that needs to be cut.

And I get that once wages lower, the economy around you lowers. I can tell you that the county I live in has been decimated by the loss of manufacturing jobs. I can also tell you that I work with companies that manufacture parts and have locations in Canada, here in northern Ohio, southern US, and Mexico. They watch the costs, productivity, and quality. Based on those factors they can adjust labor dynamically to ensure that the balance isn't lost.

That's what has happened to manufacturing and it had to because in the US the price was set and the level of productivity was set. Back before there was an infrastructure outside of the US to handle manufacturing, workers and unions had that bargaining chip. Unfortunately for the US workers, those days are gone. Which is my earlier point, that we have to remain competive. I'd rather take a %10 reduction in compensation than a %100 reduction.

~Rob

rollergator said:

Look at areas where unions have gone away ("right-to-work-for-less" states)...labor costs continue to drop, incomes drop, spending drops, and it puts a drag on the local economy.

That may be true, but I think it's fair to say that forcing that economy to justify a $30/hr. bumper mounter inflated the entire economy to begin with.

Unions made sense when there weren't certain protections around minimum wage, hours worked, safety, etc., but forcing up wages for low-skill jobs isn't sustainable.

Lankster said:

Of course that chart assumes the worker is responsible for the productivity increase. In many cases this is not so. Take the age old example of the man with a shovel being upgraded to an excavator. His productivity has increased tremendously along with the job now being easier on him physically.

That may be so, but it also means the company is getting a lot more value out of that worker than before because he's doing a lot more work in less time. Now the company can do more jobs in less time, making them more money. So where's the justification for stagnating or cutting that worker's wages, other than to add even more money to their bottom line?

other than to add even more money to their bottom line?

Isn't that the prime objective of a company? The bottom line is this country (world?) has a surplus of low-skilled labor at the moment. You can artificially raise wages, but some of the side-effects have already been mentioned.

Jeff said:

Unions made sense when there weren't certain protections around minimum wage, hours worked, safety, etc., but forcing up wages for low-skill jobs isn't sustainable.

Agreed on wages for low-skilled jobs, to a point. I don't think there's any justification for having a minimum wage so low that full-time workers qualify for public assistance. I also think (as a red-stater) that the "protections" aren't applied universally nationwide, and this leaves a HUGE percentage of our workforce going to work when their ill, without vacation or sick time, and without any income at all if they simply CAN'T make it in on a given day. Adding to that how many of those without benefits work in food-service, and I think it helps to explain some of the illness outbreaks we're seeing more and more these days.

Unions will make a comeback, they are needed, and there will always be some measure of graft and corruption among union leadership. Eliminating the unions alttogether because of a few bad actors leaves MILLIONS of low-education, low-skilled workers without even the slightest of protections. Shoot, in some states you can apparently now be fired for being too good-looking...

"Shoot, in some states you can apparently now be fired for being too good-looking..."

...and that's why I became a coaster enthusiast!

~Rob

Unionize Coasterbuzz!! I don't know but I've been told, that Jeff's pockets are lined with gold. Hey, ho-ho. Union power is on the go.

CP Chris said:
So where's the justification for stagnating or cutting that worker's wages, other than to add even more money to their bottom line?

Because that's the amount that the task being performed by the worker is worth.

Handing any given worker more compensation than their skills demand is the same artificial inflation of wages that Jeff was blaming the unions for.

You're just trying to justify it from a different angle.

If I make a product that requires a certain raw material and with changes in technology/increases in effeciencies, I can make the product using 50% less of that raw material, I don't go to the supplier of that raw material and offer to pay more for it because I can now make more of my product with the same amount of raw material. And the supplier doesn't expect me to pay more for the raw material because I am now getting more value from the same amount of it. All other things being equal, there will be downward pressure on the price of the raw material as demand for it has decreased.

GoBucks89 said:

Unionize Coasterbuzz!!

PointBuzz already has.

http://pointbuzz.spreadshirt.com/united-coaster-riders-men-s-A10091541