Former ACE president wants retail around Geauga Lake's Big Dipper

"Isn't this kind of what they wanted (want?) to do with Coney Island (except on a larger scale) that had everybody up in arms?"

The difference is that GL's coffin has already been nailed shut. Having Dipper survive in different surroundings is preferable to having no Dipper at all, hence, what I would consider very reasonable support for a pretty good idea. You're confusing your arguments here, nobody's saying this is "good" compared to having GL open and thriving, it's just better than nothing.

RGB: Did Cedar Fair say that it wasn't possible to make a profit from rides on that site, or it wasn't possible for Cedar Fair to make a profit from rides on that site? ;) You're very right about them not having thought outside the box when it comes to Geauga Lake. There was so much potential but like Six Flags, they tried to apply what they knew about amusement parks to the park and that obviously wasn't the right thing for either company to do.

I see a few similarities but a whole bunch of differences between Geauga Lake and Coney Island, Gonch. The biggest difference is the fact that Coney Island encompasses an entire part of a city while Geauga Lake is just one small part of a city. You're comparing fruit but not apples to apples. (Edit) And what matt said. Coney Island has been dying for years and I get the feeling most people were willing to embrace any kind of proposed change. Obviously that wasn't the case since Bloomberg's proposal to rebuild Coney Island around amusements instead of upscale shopping and luxury residential units was met with overwhelming applause. Matt's right, this isn't a great solution, it's just better than the one that seems to be inevitable.

I don't know if a roller coaster suddenly makes an upscale shopping center/mixed-use development "good" but it sure addresses my main concern with those types of things- homogenization. What does your typical shopping center/mixed-use development feature? Box stores, smaller shops, banks, fast food joints, sit-down restaurants and maybe a token movie theater- nothing at all unique... nothing to add a bit of character to something painfully sterile and lacking in charm. But add a roller coaster and maybe something like an arcade or bowling alley and you're suddenly looking at something with a lot more personality... not to mention a compelling draw, even if it's just to attract gawkers that can't believe there's a mall that features an honest-to-goodness rollie coaster.

*** This post was edited by Rob Ascough 11/13/2007 11:33:16 AM ***

Fair enough, guys. :)

Best of luck on this one. I'm not holding my breath.

^Nor, am I. But if it happens, I'll ride Big Dipper and visit the museum.

Mixed use, if done right, is downtown living without the downtown. I'd sure be down with that if it was done right, and it wasn't Ohio. :)

I've only met Sanderson once, and honestly she didn't strike me as the strong leadership type. Not to suggest this is the center of the universe, but how do you become president of ACE and not know about CoasterBuzz and the other various Web sites that cover your hobby?

I think the problem with the first go-round with the Coney development was a lot of people were suspicious that the amusements were only a temporary feature to get the developer's plan approved. Many felt that within a few years, the developer would try to eliminate the amusements because they weren't compatible with his plan for high-rise luxury condos, or didn't provide enough return.

In this case, Big Dipper is being presented as the possible anchor for the development, not a potential obstruction.

Isn't this kind of what they wanted (want?) to do with Coney Island (except on a larger scale) that had everybody up in arms?

We were up in arms because they were stipping away that which many think makes Coney so special.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. People in NYC felt that the amusement park plans put forth by Thor were merely to pave the way for approval of other projects that would have stripped the area of what's made it so popular for more than a century. People are unanimous in their thinking that change is needed. It's the kind of change that's had people second-guessing everything that's been said and proposed.

^^^ I found it odd when I learned that Carole didn't know of this site but I also don't think her not knowing about the site is a reflection of her leadership. There were a few ACE presidents that were known to be a little cold and impersonal and Carole did a lot to bring a human aspect to the organization. When someone had an issue, she was more than willing to take the time to talk to them instead of blowing them off and that was a really good approach. She also knows a thing or two about what she's proposing and while I'm hesitant to expect anything at this point, I also know that if someone is going to make it happen, it'll surely be Carole.

"I'm Carole!" :)

Haven't heard that in years.

There is always plenty of interested investors, but very few who actually commit.

Why wouldn't Cedar Fair try something like this? Simple. They're in the business of running amusement parks, not retail shopping centers. Cedar Fair is smart to stay focused on their core business.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I don't think it is a great idea. The amusement portion would be seasonal and the retail portion year round, yet when the retail hits its peak traffic (Thanksgiving to Christmas) the amusement portion would be closed.

I think the entertainment retail complex works better for indoor rides/attractions in areas with cold weather. If you're going to have outdoor attractions the complex really needs to be in a warm climate.

The other problem is the value of the space. If the retail portion is successful then the demand for space will increase. The roller coaster isn't going to gross anywhere near what a retail store will do on a per square-foot basis. A good retail owner would then tear down the coaster and built more shops. The Big Dipper may attract some to the center, but ultimately it is going to be the retail mix that creates the attraction, not the ride.

Don't bring up Mall of America as an example. It is an entirely different concept.

In the 70s there was a mall in Torrance, California called Old Towne that had a carousel, two dark rides, shooting gallery and a couple of kiddie flat rides. Eventually, the rides were replaced with retail since they couldn't compete with the stores.

The Big Dipper would be better off being moved to an amusement park.

I'm so glad there are some people in decision making positions in this world that don't ONLY care about how much money something makes.

Yeah, they're called unemployed. :)

Ha! Nice. :)

Not that those concerned with how much money something makes are actually able to make any themselves.

I think the point is people in those types of positions are hired to think only about how much money something makes.

I'm an ACE member and think Carole has done a great job with the organization, plus this sounds like a cool idea. However, if it becomes a reality, I think after a few years this coaster within a shopping facility could possibly decline in popularity. At best, Big Dipper would be much better off being adopted by an amusement park.