Saturday, January 4, 2003 6:51 PM
What is the difference between a flatspin and a corkscrew?
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Saturday, January 4, 2003 6:55 PM

I believe they are the same thing. B&M wanted an original names so they just called them a flatspin.

Also:

An arrow batwing (Drachen Fire) is a B&M cobra roll.

An arrow bowtie (Viper SFMM) is a B&M batwing on an inverted coaster.

Different companies use different names.

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Saturday, January 4, 2003 6:56 PM
Flatspin and corkscrew are the same. The term is just used in different parts of the world.

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 4:36 AM
Actually they are used for different coaster companies, as rentzy said.

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 5:19 AM

Sorry, Misinformed

It just seemed to me that most of the english (people from britian) call it a flatspin.

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 6:40 AM
Thats not the only thing differant.. Most B&M flatspins (invert) have a very whippy sensation, not like other companies corkscrews. Which are why flatspins are so much better IMO. Gotta love da flatspin morris!

*** This post was edited by SteveWoA on 1/5/2003. ***

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 9:19 AM

Yes, SteveWOA, but I was under the impression that the "whippy corkscrews" on the inverts were called wingovers by B&M. The do indeed produce a "snappier" flip than their flatspins (B&M terminology for the corkscrew) which you find on sitdown (or stand-up) multi-loopers.

Sort of similar to how a Zero-G roll on a B&M multi-looper is an "inline twist" on their inverteds.

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 3:06 PM
Flatspin is also an airplane manuever. Also, Immelman was a pilot. Dive loop is also an airplane manuever.

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*** This post was edited by swimmerkev on 1/5/2003. ***

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 7:30 PM

Lord Gonchar said:
"Yes, SteveWOA, but I was under the impression that the "whippy corkscrews" on the inverts were called wingovers by B&M. The do indeed produce a "snappier" flip than their flatspins (B&M terminology for the corkscrew) which you find on sitdown (or stand-up) multi-loopers.

Sort of similar to how a Zero-G roll on a B&M multi-looper is an "inline twist" on their inverteds.


Of the B&M blueprints that I've seen, they have always referred to the corkscrew-like element as a "flat spin". That goes for sit downs and inverts alike. They also don't use the term "inline twist" on any blueprint I've seen - it's called "zero g roll" now on all their rides, and was formerly called "rotation in weightless condition" (as seen on the Dragon Khan blueprints). I have never seen anything proving B&M called *anything* a "wingover" and have no idea where that term came from (though I suppose it's possible they used the name way back in the day).

A flat spin differs from your traditional Arrow-style corkscrew quite a bit. The Arrow corkscrew of 1975 was a fixed-radius helical curve. It's the same curve throughout the element. B&M flat spins are multi-radius, with a tighter curve at the top of the element, resulting in the "whip" effect discussed in this thread.

I would disagree with the quoted post - flat spin intensity and "snappiness" varies on all their rides. For example, Iron Wolf's flat spin has by far the most "snap" of any I've done. Carowinds's Top Gun has the best of the inverteds I've done. But other standups have pretty boring flat spins. There are also some flat spins on inverteds that don't feel like much, either. It varies far more from ride to ride than it does from standup/sitdown to inverted, etc.

Jeff

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Sunday, January 5, 2003 8:48 PM

Well then we can agree to disagree, sfogviper. I've always heard the flatspin/wingover thing for as long as I've been interested in that sort of thing. For other sources that refer to inverted flatspins/corkscrews as "wingovers" I'll refer you to this link regarding Raptor on RCDB (which also uses "inline twist", but more on that in a moment) and this table of the elements at coasterglobe.com - those are just the first two I could find. I've seen/heard it referred to as a "wingover" in many other places and from many other enthusiasts.

As far as the inline twist vs zero-g thing, I was always under the impression (although I'm not 100% on this) that they were indeed slightly different due to the fact that a sit down rides on the rails while an inverted rides below thus completely changing the position of the riders heartline and in turn the way the roll needs to be designed to produce the same effect.

Perhaps it's the selection of B&M's each of us has ridden, but in general I find the inverted "wingover" to be much more snappier than a sitdown or standup "flatspin".

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Monday, January 6, 2003 7:18 PM

Lord Gonchar said:
"Well then we can agree to disagree, sfogviper.

It has nothing to do with disagreeing on an opinion. The fact is the B&M blueprints say "flat spin" - even the inverted blueprints. I don't have the image of the Top Gun (Carowinds) blueprint on the computer anymore, perhaps someone somewhere does. Like I said, I have never seen an official B&M source that calls anything a "wingover" and I suspect anyone would be hard pressed to produce such a document. Just because the enthusiast community has sporadically come up with this "wingover" crap doesn't mean that's the official B&M name.

There is a difference in the construction of a zero-g-roll between inverteds/sitdowns/etc, due to the position of the centerline of the train. But it is still called a "zero-g-roll" by B&Ms, right down to the blueprints. This is not an opinion that can be debated (though that certainly never stops Coasterbuzz from going on ad nauseum...).

Jeff

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Monday, January 6, 2003 8:16 PM

OK, then it seems my wording was off. Instead of:

"I was under the impression that the "whippy corkscrews" on the inverts were called wingovers by B&M"

I should have written:

Many enthusiasts and other sources refer to the "whippy corkscrews" on B&M inverts as "wingovers". I feel that the wingover element has a slightly different, almost tighter, design that give you more of a whip as you pass through it.


Just because the enthusiast community has sporadically come up with this "wingover" crap doesn't mean that's the official B&M name

True in the sense that it doesn't change the official name B&M uses. But then again, 99.9% of people talking about these coasters (enthusiasts, GP, fans in genral) will have never seen such blueprints nor talked in detail with Mr. Bolliger or Mr. Mabillard and it does have merit as a term for that reason alone.

It seems most of the disagreement comes from my incorrect wording and not so clear way of conveying the idea in the first place. Bottom line is that a certain segment of people have and do refer to the element as a "wingover" in large enough numbers that I have heard it used over and over again (regardless of whatever B&M chooses to write on a blueprint) and I was trying to pass that info along.

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Monday, January 6, 2003 8:26 PM

Hyper-Term coined by either enthusiasts or advertisment people, and used all the time. Despite the fact that the actually definition is debateble, everyone knows exactly what you mena when you say it.

Giga-Term coined by a company. Used, but not too often, and with a somewhat hazy understanding of the term.

Conclusion-What we enthusiasts decide upon is the terminology that should be used. If that's the same term used as the manufacturers, great. But it doesn't have to be.

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Monday, January 6, 2003 9:30 PM

(SF)Great American said:

Conclusion-What we enthusiasts decide upon is the terminology that should be used. If that's the same term used as the manufacturers, great. But it doesn't have to be.


Indeed. I admit that wingover is not exactly a "common" term, but it is one used - at least as much as flatspin, both of which are used much, much less than corkscrew. I have to agree with the quote above though, most people refer to the "cobra roll" on Vekoma Boomerangs. Sure Vekoma created the boomerang element on a roller coaster a full 12 years before B&M used it, but cobra roll is the term that seems to have caught on. It's certainly not Vekoma's "official" name for that element (hell, they named a model of coaster "Boomerang") but "cobra roll" is probably the most widely accepted term for the half loop/half corkscrew/half corkscrew/half loop (to use RCT speak) element.

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*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar on 1/7/2003. ***

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Monday, January 6, 2003 9:43 PM
I've never heard the term "wingover" until reading this thread. That's saying something, too, considering the B&M fan that I am.

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Monday, January 6, 2003 10:39 PM

Not to run this into the ground (too late, huh?) but simply do a google search for three obvious words "wingover roller coaster" (just "wingover" brings up a bunch of aviation related info) and you'll find tons of pages with references, descriptions and terminology that includes "wingover".

The most notable link being a FAQ from rec.roller-coaster (about 5 or 6 down the list) dated October 1995 - the term has been thrown around for at least 7 years. Perhaps it is an older term that isn't used as frequently now?

I thought I was going crazy there for a minute! :)

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*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar on 1/7/2003. ***

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