Executives earnings

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Nobody is saying the feds should step in and set the earnings or anything. What it all comes down to is greed. Everyone has a right to be greedy, of course, but that doesn't make it right. I agree with Allan that it would be nice if these people took their share to live on (but not pamper themselves to death) and left it at that but such won't happen because it flies in the face of capitalism and human nature. I bet there's very few, if any, people here that would not be doing the same thing if given the chance. Let's remember that those guys could be taking much more of the pie for themselves, too...

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PLEASE READ: This post wasn't meant to offend or anger anyone; I apologize in advance if it does. So please don't post a reply just to rant about it. :)

Another thing to factor into all of this is that Dick doesn't set his wage. The Board of Directors oversees that and the remainder of the compensation package. So yes, he does have people to answer to.

I guess it is the "Democrat Principle" that people should not be allowed to be rich. The richest 1/10th of our population drives the economy. Without the rich, we would put all kinds of people out of a job. The people that build the mansions, jets, fancy cars, etc.

What I was referring to earlier is that I do think it is imcumbent on the company to share the wealth with the people who make it happen. In the case of Cedar Point, there are some low and mid-level managers who don't get paid near what they would on the outside. It is their decision to stay, I understand that.

Same can be said for Disney. As much as Eisner and the other executives make, I think it is shameful that there are full-time employees who make at or slightly above the poverty level. Again, not saying that Eisner doesn't deserve what he makes but his employees shouldn't be struggling to pay the bills each month.

StandUpFan: If you're suggesting that Dick Kinzel, or any of the execs for that matter, are greedy, I'm a bit offended by that. I can't speak for the Six Flags folks, as I've only talked briefly with Gary Story, but the Cedar Fair folks are outstanding world-class people. They aren't too big to pick up trash and get their hands dirty. They bust their asses for the company and worked hard to move up through the ranks to attain their positions.

If lower employees can't pay their bills, they should look for different jobs or train for better paying jobs. They get paid what they're worth. These are business we're talking about, not charities. Fairness isn't a factor. Should someone working in fast food make $40k just because that would be more fair? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I made $15k a year when I worked in radio. I couldn't even move out of my parents' house on that. I worked my ass off to learn new skills. I make a whole lot more now than the average American because I worked for it. I make my charitable donations to causes that are good for humanity or to people are simply misfortunate, and I give quite freely to friends (ask the luau attendees), but I don't need people telling me what's fair or what's enough. My ass worked for what I have. Go make your own money.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"Let's stop saying 'don't quote me,' because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying." - Dogma, KMFDM

Allan and friends, you might be surprised to find out that there are people who post on this board who make quite a bit of money, even a millionaire or two. I've been both a failure and a success story in the capitalistic world, and before I'm done I'll be both again, I'm sure.

I say more power to those rich bastards-it's a reward for a healthy company and a job well done. They've made their own success and they should be rewarded for it.

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No love for the whiners

It isn't popular to say it, but capitalism depends on greed.

People work hard, think hard, etc. because they want to get ahead in life. They don't want to live on $15k/year or less. They want to be able to afford a nice house, nice car, good schools for the kids, etc. Isn't greed simply wanting more than you currently have? It isn't bad, and when I hear someone use it as an insult, I'm not offended--I just wonder why someone thinks it's an insult to want to do well in life.

If nobody wanted to get ahead in life, we'd all still be hunter-gatherers.

MagnumAllan said:

That is more than enough and is all he really deserves. Sure, he does all that stuff you mentioned. But that is not worth millions of dollars. Neither are a lot of jobs that pay millions. The guy works hard and should be paid accordingly. His mortgage would be well taken care of, his car payment would be well taken care of, and he could spend a month each year in Hawaii. And also, you would aspire to be in that position because it is one that pays well. Not 1.3 million well, but half a million well. -----------------
Magnum Allan - FLCC member. My website: http://dropzone224.tripod.com

One question - how do you know? I worked a previous job in compensation surveying and benchmarking. They pay these guys what they do for several reasons - because of the demands of the job sure but also in order to get a quality condidate. I'm sure that you could pay many executives less than they receive in compensation, but you may have someone running the ship who is a total drip. You don't think that a basketball player deserves multimultimillions each year, and sure, I'd agree that they don't... but they get these elaborate offers in order to beat the other teams out to get the better guys when they want them. This is a capitalistic society in which you have competition and survival of the fittest. This isn't an otherwise-characterized society where some entity determines 'what people should get and what is enough'. I believe that structure failed in the early nineties somewhere over in eastern and western europe.

Jeff said:

If lower employees can't pay their bills, they should look for different jobs or train for better paying jobs. They get paid what they're worth. These are business we're talking about, not charities. Fairness isn't a factor. Should someone working in fast food make $40k just because that would be more fair? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Now, there is the rub. No, the businesses are not charities. But, let's examine this a little further. Since we have become a service driven economy, especially in the case of Orlando, it stands to reason that people need to make a career out of hospitality, entertainment, and what have you. In the case of Disney, how many "management positions" are available out of the 60,000 positions that exist there? I don't know but I bet it is a small percentage.

Let's just say 40,000 people, working year round, will never ascend to managment positions in the company. Now, either they "go improve themselves" or they stay put. Disney relies on a vast majority of those 40,000 to stay put. They NEED that experience, continuity and so forth. A company with the resources of Disney, with executives hauling in loads and loads of money, should be able to keep their employees off the poverty level.

Cedar Point is different. The majority of its workforce is seasonal and, naturally, low paid. Those hundreds of employees who are full time work demanding schedules. They underpay their entry level employees b/c they can. How many people on this site would jump at the chance to work full time at Cedar Point? Because of that, they can pay less. In my opinion, because they CAN doesn't mean they SHOULD. I think it is beginning to hurt them now too. 10-15 years ago, positions rarely became available. Turnover of the full time staff was minimal. Now, you see it happening more regularly. Sooner or later, I think that is going to do some harm.

Just one guys opinion.

*** This post was edited by wahoo skipper on 8/2/2002. ***

But if many of these lower level employees improved their skills to a higher level, they would be qualified for the higher paid positions. This means more people qualified for the higher level jobs, and more job competition should hold down salaries. Likewise, these people moving up leave fewer at the bottom, which should be a force to increase salaries there.

Most people don't begrudge the execs making big salaries when the company is doing well. The problem is when these same execs drive the company into the ground--and still get big bonuses, until they are finally run out of town in disgrace. Not before getting a huge severance package, though.

A few notes on this:

Without direct reference to SF & CF management, much of top management in this country is overpaid, and they get that pay even when company performance is poor. Even mutual fund managers are starting to recognize this and complain.

Part of how this is done is through bonus structures. Bonus structures tend to reward short term performance over long term. They are also often tied to measures of performance that don't necessisarily benefit the company.

I've seen companies lay off hundreds of workers to allow executives to get bonuses for reducing headcount. The work was then done by using paid overtime and outside contractors at much higher costs. But the executives got their bonuses since the bonuses were tied to head count, not operational cost.

Bonuses also are usually tied to some date for achieving goals. This results in an executive who can't see beyond that date.

Bonuses can be useful. They are powerful motivators, but therin lies the danger. Executives can find themselves trapped between doing what is best for the company and doing what is best for getting their bonus.

I'm just curious, Skipper... why SHOULD they pay them more if they don't have to? I know that as a FUN unit holder I prefer they pay what the market will bear, and give me my share of the profits.

And I don't get your Disney thing at all. What are these people doing that they need longevity? How many full-time jobs require high skills? I'd say that 95% of the employees I encounter at Disney or any theme park need very little training to get started. Anyone can do those jobs.

Actually, the executive compensation for SF & CF is not nearly as high as many companies. SF's is greater, but SF is also a much larger business than CF.

Unfortuantely, executive compensation in many companies is not based on a competitive market. Executives select board members who then decide what the executives make. Then the executives decide what the board members make. In all to many cases the system has been subverted.

*** This post was edited by Jim Fisher on 8/2/2002. ***

Granted, the Cedar Point issue doesn't make sense on the surface. Yes, if they can "get by" with paying less then I guess that is good for business. But, I think many things can suffer when you lose good people (because your salaries are low) and hire other people who will take the low pay but may not be as capable. In my opinion, you get what you pay for. It hasn't really hurt the Point yet but who knows what the future holds?

At Disney, it has begun to hurt. The incident in California regarding the cleat that snapped off the dock and injured some guests (I think someone died but I can't recall) could almost exclusively be linked to lower pay and less capable cast members. Disney scaled back its preventative maintenance program b/c of costs. They tried to take specialized maintenance workers and cross train them...thus eliminating positions. There was wood rot in the dock that would have been caught if the prevantitive maintenance program weren't shelved.

The driver of the boat, a new supervisor who had never operated the ride on her own, put too much stress on the cleat by improperly docking which, when combined with the wood rot, caused the accident. She was operating the ride b/c the park had ordered budget cuts which affected staffing.

Almost anyone could do the vast majority of the jobs at Disney, I don't disagree. The problem is that the number of people interested in working at Disney is not what it once was. Those that do apply are not of the same caliber that they once were. So, in Disney's words, the show suffers.

Disney's turnover is significant. Back in the 70's, 80's and early 90's Disney rarely, if ever, had to recruit. In the mid 90's they started putting banners up on I-4 promoting job fairs. In the late 90's they have more than doubled their college program b/c they can't get the help in Orlando.

WDW recruits all over the country. Cedar Point is going to Lithuania for employees. There was talk at Geauga Lake some years back of hiring prisoners on a work release program. I am not making that up! Sooner or later, something has to give.

Jeff said:

Allan: You sound like you're jealous or something. How do you expect him to pay for the Jag and that great house (and guest house) on the beach? You don't know jack about what he deserves. Any single person who makes decisions that affect the lives of thousands of people, and millions of customers a shareholders deserves the big dollars. It's not a job that you and I could do. It's not a job that anyone I know could do.
You sound like a communist.
Well, I'm not a communist, but I am not a greedy capitalist either. You make Kinzel's job out to be rocket science; it isn't. The guy has to make a few big decisions each year and that is it. He has many people working under him doing all the dirty work, and all he has to say is yes or no. I know you will jump all over me for this, but Kinzel is no genius. He is good and I respect him for that, but he is not on some level of superiority. After business school, I could do his job.

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Magnum Allan - FLCC member. My website: http://dropzone224.tripod.com

Hahahahahaha. That's why so many MBA's are unemployed right now. Do you think his replacement is going to be some snot-nosed 23-year old know it all? I think not.

You sure do have a strange view of the world.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

No, some 23 year old is not going to take his place because there is a way things work in businesses and you have to work your way up. However, the 23 year old *could* do the job, but he would never be given the opportunity. As for my view on the world, it is just more reasonable than reality. Sure these guys are smart, but they just don't do enough work (nobody really could) to deserve that kind of money. And I'm only talking about Kinzel here, all the rest like Keller deserve the salaries they earn. It is just weird the way the world works....Kinzel does no more work than those guys but because he is on top he earns three times as much. I am not claiming this is only a Cedar Fair thing and in some cases it is even worse than that, but I don't think that is the way any company should be structured.

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Magnum Allan - FLCC member. My website: http://dropzone224.tripod.com

Keep on living in your dreamworld...

Hey, I can think more intelligently than the rest of the world, right? It doesn't mean I believe this is how it works. I can play the game quite well while still thinking it is all a bunch of crap. Your job must be tough having all this time to argue over "silly nonsense."

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Magnum Allan - FLCC member. My website: http://dropzone224.tripod.com

You should probably get off the phone... someone is calling you to tap your expertise to run a billion dollar company.

To think that any 23 year old out of business college (perhaps one of the least strenuous degrees) can handle any park GM's job (let alone something that Kinzel is doing) is a joke. He is part of the team that has taken a little regional park in the mid eighties to one of the best known parks world wide in twenty years. I would say that puts him in a very rare group of business men. Either you have it or you don't in the entertainment industry; and most don't.

I absolutely LOVED my job as a ride opp at CP and IOA, However...

I will agree that low level park employees do not get paid enough. While employeed by IOA, I only made a measily $6.15 an hour. I was a very hard working employee and did my job well enough to make otherride opps jealous. I tried hard to climb the ladder and never made it past the first step. I LOVED my job as it fit me like a glove. I wanted to still be working for the park 10, 20, or even 30 years later.

So why am I not now a current Universal IOA employee? I wasn't getting paid enough to even barely survive on. At the grocery store, for example, I would get a lump in my throat when I couldn't afford certian foods like PB an J because my weekly spending for groceriess was only $15.

It was especially hard to bare when I saw the really nice cars in the private employee parking lot for higher upps. Or when some nice family would just throw their money around like it was Christmas or something.

I would see money being spent left and right, but when I got my pay check I wouldn't see any of that same money. Orlando is a very expensive city to live in, and my 15 cent raise wasn't due until one year after my start date.

In my dispare and poverty, I decided to move back to my home town WAYYY up north in Altoona. It is far cheaper to live here, but my new job at the furnature store is not my passion like my ride opp jobs in O-town or Sandusky. IOA really lost a valuble, enthusiastic, and supportive employee and I hope they will someday realize that the turnaround at the park is mostly because of low pay. I think $7-$8 per hour is reasonable but the ride leads don't even make that much.

So this isn't a total B****fest on my part, Cedar Point's pay is much better (except the fact that ride opps are seasonal). They pay $7.25 per hour after bonus. AND liveing expenses(food, rent, ect.) are CHEAP. No complaints from me about CP except I can't work there all year long.

Note: This is just my opinion. I realize that we live in the real world. I wish every big business owner was like Bill Gates. My understanding is that if you work for him, he will take good care of you.

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