Drachen Fire Lot

Can we please agree that no-one is ever going to win the argument about whether DF was rough or not?

Monto, you asked what it was like.
I remember my first ride, spring of 1992, my junior year of High School. I'd lived in Richmond my whole life, and grown up at King's Dominion (season passholder for over a decade as a child) and took yearly trips to Busch Gardens. At this point the only steel loopers I'd ever ridden were Loch Ness and Anaconda at KD, with which I had a love/hate relationship. I loved everything before the MCBR, I HATED everything after.

I'd seen the computer animation of Drachen Fire on the local news and was completely in awe. Here was something different... different from Anaconda, anyway. You could hardly see the top of the lift from the parking lot, but you knew it was lurking there.

I remember drooling over the beatiful blue and silver mass of metal, and the cars were so incredibly cool I couldn't stand it. It felt like it was a mile from the Festhaus back to the station. Even then there was hardly anyone in line.
The car dropped out of the station on a steep, tight left turn back to the lift, which I now believe was influenced by B&M's involvement with the ride. It certainly wasn't standard Arrow issue. The lift seemed like it went up forever, and as you crested the top you saw what I still think is the coolest first drop of any coaster ever. It was like the second element of Anaconda, but take in reverse... a beautiful half corkscrew which flew into a glorious, sweeping drop that fell nearly straight towards the ground. Next was even cooler, though, to my young mind of limited experience... a huge hill designed for pure airtime. I'd never felt anything like it on a steel coaster. I remember cleary thinking I'd love to see a whole steel coaster with nothing but hills like that (It would be a year or so yet 'til I'd hear of Hypercoasters and Magnum.)
Zooming off the hill you entered straight into a huge cobra roll... again, I'd never seen such a thing. My mind reeled with joy. After a quick 180 degree swoop back up the left you hit the MCBR... HARD! Just like Anaconda, this is where the ride's glory waned, though it still had a few surprises left. After slowing to a crawl it descended into a diving corkscrew, the element that was removed at the end of its first season. Honestly, the next year I rode it I have to admit I hardly missed it at all. From this point nearly every element was very close to the ground as you jerked to the left to hit the 'Cutback', in RollerCoaster Tycoon terms it was two half corkscrews stuck together to reverse the direction of travel. It was claimed to create a feeling of weightlessness, but many were too busy bracing their heads to notice. The ride picked up again, though, as it sweeped right to enter what I recall to be a well timed corkscrew (much better than Anaconda's, which I hated) and then its final joy - a brilliant, fast helix which scraped along a small ditch covered in big, gray rocks. I always felt they could scrape your face off if you leaned too far out. Brakes. Aaaaah.

Was Drachen Fire rough? It was an Arrow mega-looper, make your own guesses based on your own experiences. Was it one of a kind? Absolutely. It's first half was a total revelation for me.It's second half, while flawed, still had what is arguably the best, most diverse and well placed combination of elements Arrow has designed. I don't believe a foot of track was wasted in the design.
I would ride it 1000 times again if I could.

edited b/c of my misunderstanding spewey's post
--------
Pun is the death of wit.
*** This post was edited by ThemeDesigner 2/25/2003 6:09:15 PM ***

I dont know how many have ridden Cheetah at Wild Adventures. But virtually all of the GP think it is a very rough ride. I went with a group of a couple dozen people to the park and every one rode about once and then said it was too rough to ride again. I personally thought it was a fun ride. I think the main problem is the lack of ANY padding throughout the entire train.

This ride never had a full train.

Sure you would, but the problem was that nobody else wanted to ride it again. You can't blame a park for removing a ride because nobody was riding it due to roughness. And you cannot claim a ride wasn't rough when it very clearly was - nobody rode DF over and over again.

-Nate

Hey, I didn't say the park is at fault for removing the ride, and I did NOT claim the ride wasn't rough. If you'll read it again, you'll see the first part of my post was just suggesting that people going back and forth about how rough they feel it was/was not is pointless.

Obviously, many felt it WAS rough and many people did NOT like it. No one can argue that someone's feeling are wrong... many didn't think it was so bad, though everyone has to admit it had ridiculously low re-ride numbers. I even pointed out in my post that there were rough spots (I would not say the whole ride was rough)
Likewise, no one can tell me *I* am wrong for having loved the ride and wishing it were still around.

--------
Pun is the death of wit.
*** This post was edited by ThemeDesigner 2/25/2003 6:11:24 PM ***

---

ThemeDesigner said:
...which I now believe was influenced by B&M's involvement with the ride.

---

B&M had no involvement with the ride, for the last time. They've been personally asked this I don't know how many times. It's as true as the "fact" that Magnum is sinking.

------------------
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

Sorry, had never heard that before, Jeff. I was basing the statement on this page
http://history.amusement-parks.com/users/adamsandy/drachenfire.htm
Which is the only place I've ever seen the topic discussed
My bad.
--------
Pun is the death of wit.

I don't have really have an opinion on the issue of Drachen Fire being done or started by B&M, but even if the words come right out of B&M's mouth it could be untrue. Heck, John Odum said SUF wouldn't be cloned, and there are two new ones coming out this year.

As for Drachen Fire being rough, I never rode it, but I can say a park would not tear down a huge investment so soon if it didn't have some major problems.

------------------
"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

Hey man, if you're gonna disagree with me, at least get it right. I said my wife defended DF - saying I was wrong, it wasn't the roughest coaster ever (i.e. "For the DF defenders, my wife says ...). Although she did think it was the second worst coaster she'd been on - I guess my phrasing may have been confusing.

And, to be clear - I have never, and will never, say people are wrong for their liking something I don't - I'm glad there's a variety of opinions, it makes the world more interesting.
------------------
Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.

Foot in mouth.
I had indeed read your intent incorrectly, spewey. Sorry sorry sorry.
I am editing to make ammends.

--------
Pun is the death of wit.

Thanks for the great memories, ThemeDesigner. I also rode it during its inaugural year, and had a very similar experience--including the bit about not missing the corkscrew...except that I came off the ride thinking, 'weren't there six inversions before?' But I honestly couldn't figure out which element was gone.

Oh, and if you have NoLimits, I suggest clicking the link in my sig... ;)

------------------
-Vater
'These pretzels are making me thirsty.'
Take a ride...

And about the whole B&M issue, they build Kumba and BGW wanted a looper that would stand up to Anaconda, a little ways away, they NEVER had anything to do with the design, they turned it down, so Jeff is right, Arrow did it. As for B&M not admitting it, they have gone on record saying they didn't want to build the ride, for some reason or another(read this on another site) so just cause it's a "Drastically Different" design, that dosen't mean it didn't come from Arrow. Heck, look at X and tell me that's not drastically different, as time goes, people's idea's change, and what BGW wanted was a unique coaster with lotsa loops, which Arrow provided.

------------------
Mmmmmmmm...Chocolate!

D.Y.K. that Drachen is actually German for Kite? Drache is Dragon. Kite Fire.

If you watch some of those Discovery shows, they have interviews with Alan (from Arrow) and in his office are alot of drawings of very unique, non-Arrow, coasters. Just saying that Drachen Fire could be one of those. Tennessee Tornado is also a non-Arrow style coaster.

------------------
Fear the Wrath of the Orient Express!!
www.pkixtreme.tk

Very true, I mean on TT, they even have a larger loop! thanx OEKid!

------------------
There is no spoon.

---

or that togo coaster...

---

I know this is a bit off topic, but I greatly enjoyed Manhatten Express in Vegas. Granted, if at an amusement park the ride would have been average but on the Vegas strip it was amazing!! I can honestly say it had a smooth ride. I don't know which TOGO coaster(s) you are speaking of being rough. My two cents.

If you want to build a looper to "stand up to" Anaconda, then why hire the *exact* same company, a company known to use the *exact* same techniques over and over again? Why *not* go with B&M, a company that was just wowing people because their designs were so radically different from Arrow coasters? If you want to blow some other ride away, you don't hire a company to build something almost identical.

Second, why would B&M turn down building a ride for BGW? They were already working with B&M for the BGT coaster. There's absolutely no reason B&M would just turn down a ride "for one reason or another." Let's hear the reason and then we'll decide.

Of coure neither B&M or Arrow would admitt to each other's involvement, especially to a bunch of enthusiasts. That's incredibly bad PR for a company, so you lie when you have to and there are no facts to prove otherwise.

You're correct that just because it's a drastically different design doesn't prove that it wasn't Arrow. The problem comes when it's so obviously identical to the layouts B&M began producing the year after.

-Nate

Okay, here's my take on the subject. It's totaly un-sunstantiated, formed purely from the little bits of pure information I've gleamed from various TV shows, web sites, etc, but I thpught you all might be interested.

YOU'RE ALL WRONG.

Jeff and co.: How can you say There was no B&M influence on the Drachen Fire? Look at the structure of the lift hill. Look at the batwing (a.k.a. cobra roll). Look at that almost figure-8 type ending. The thing screams B&M all over it.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that B&M were actually involved at all. From what I can see, Busch never contected B&M for Drachen FIre, and I would find it very odd to find evidence that they did, in fact, do so.

Rather, I see it as Arrrow imitating B&M on their own. Arrow saw that B&M was changing the whole looping coaster market. This was their way of saying, "Hey, we can do that, too!!" Not to mention "and one better," 'cause there are two elements (the diving corkscrew and the cutback) that are nothing like any B&M element, and would not fit in an "originally done by B&M" layout. It was Arrow's way of trying to stay competitive by being just as innpovative as they had been in the past.

Looking at it like that, it's no surprised Arrow dropped off the face of the Earth soon after. They built this huge monster to prove that they could do what B&M could... and it turned out that they couldn't. That's got to be tough to live down...

------------------
I hear America screaming...
*** This post was edited by (SF)Great American 2/25/2003 10:15:52 PM ***

People pick on and complain about my coaster all the time.
I hope it dosent get taken down too!

The reason i say that is Mf never gets a break on the americacoaster boards. Every time mf gets mentioned in those forums someone has some kind of critizisim to put mf down.

Anyway it is sad to hear about drachen fire being scrapped cause of some stupid complaints.
*** This post was edited by Millennium Force 2k3 2/25/2003 10:46:07 PM ***

Regardless if I liked it, it will always be remembered much more fondly because we can't ride it anymore. Good or bad, it has that "myth-like" status that it probably never had while open. Kind of like Moonsault Scramble.... You have no idea how rough and overly intense it was.
------------------
Debeers - ...she'll almost have to...

That's an interesting theory, (SF)Great American, but there's one major problem with it: B&M hadn't produced a looping coaster with those elements until after Drachen Fire. Kumba was the first B&M looper, first to feature a cobra roll, interlocking corkscrews, diving loop, etc. It's hard to claim Arrow was influenced by something that hadn't happened yet. :)

Plus, that doesn't really explain sticking in a random airtime hill or the fact that the cutback seems to be Arrow's answer for B&M's sharp turnaround between the corkscrews.

-Nate

Ah, I have an answer for that, though: The batwing/cobra roll is, I think, a natural progression from the boomerang/kamikaze curve/batwing/ whateverthehellelsethey'recallingitthesedays. If Arrow was trying to "one-up" B&M, I wouldn't be surprsed if they developed it on their own. Not mention that they might have gotten word of the cobra roll, somehow. The two coasters were in produtction simultaneously. Also, The big thing in the end is the figure-8 layout, not interlocking corkscrews. B&M was big on the figure-8 on their early satnd-ups. To my knowledge, Arrow never used any type of figure-8, large or small, before.

Also, I don't think the cutback is just a way to make a sharp curve: They could easily have put in a normal curve. There was plenty of room for it.

------------------
I hear America screaming...