Disney hates poor people

You might want to tell him to watch what's going on with points. Marriott is acquiring Starwood, which almost certainly means changes are coming to Starwood's reward program.

Article here.

Not to be contrary, but I think Swan and Dolphin absolutely suck. I stayed in Swan with a friend the year before last, and I thought it was a dump. Charging for parking was lame too.

slithernoggin said:

You might want to tell him to watch what's going on with points. Marriott is acquiring Starwood, which almost certainly means changes are coming to Starwood's reward program.

He knows. That's why he's planning to burn a huge chunk of them on a beach-resorts-around-the-world junket. I have a much more paltry sum, but I'm going to use about half on Spring Break in Miami's South Beach.

Isn't the Swan and Dolphin actually run by a thrid party using the Disney name?

slithernoggin said:

You know, I'm not sure WDW has ever been priced to appeal to the mass market/middle class.

Poking around The Googles, I found Disney, in 1971, offering a four day/three night package that would run a family of four around $1,500 in 2015 dollars. Add in airfare and car rental and you're over $2,000.

Do you mean 1971 dollars?

Swan and Dolphin are both Starwood properties, with Swan (the curvey one) (with the giant Swans, duh) under the Westin brand and Dolphin (the pointy one with the giant fish) under Sheraton. I've never stayed at either one, but we went through one evening and had a lovely dinner at Todd English's bluezoo, which is in the Dolphin. I've heard that one is classier, and more expensive than the other and I believe that honor goes to Dolphin. On our little tour I noticed that Swan was really busy, with lots and lots of kids running the lobby. Dolphin, not so much.

The hotels were designed by Michael Graves A&D who was charged with designing "entertainment architecture" resorts for Disney that did not include characters or a typical Disney story line. They wanted tall buildings with a distinct Florida vibe and imposing features visible from afar. I think post-modern architecture is at the very least interesting, and I was happy to examine the buildings and surroundings up close. I've wondered how enduring that brief design fad would be- it's not modern, not classic, but something totally different. So.... I guess I've decided that their quirkiness is timeless. At any rate, they're fun to see and should always remain a unique part of WDW.
Visitors should notice a cast member building across from Disney Springs that's in a similar groove. It very well may be Michael Graves as well, I'm not sure.

I found the Swan to be a good value. Is it as nice as the Boardwalk? No, but it's also not as expensive. I consider it to be somewhere between the moderates and the deluxe resorts. I also find the architecture impressive, although it does clash a bit with the nearby Boardwalk and Yacht & Beach Club.

Paisley said:

Do you mean 1971 dollars?

No. I added up the 1971 prices ($90 for adults, $36 for the kids, assumed a family of four) and ran it through the BLS inflation calculator.

For the record, that vacation package got you 3 nights at one of WDW's two hotels, 4 days admission to Magic Kingdom and 4 days use of the monorail, steam boats and trams, admission to all 28 Magic Kingdom attractions (they were using tickets at the time) and $30 worth of recreation coupons good towards golf, boating, horseback riding and bicycling, among other activities.

RCMAC, the Team Disney Orlando building was designed by Arata Isozaki

^+1 for a sound methodology! :-)

And another vote for Isozaki. Silly me, we happen to have one of his buildings right here in good old Columbus, Ohio. COSI, (Center of Science and Industry) is arguably the foremost kid/family science museum in the country. When it expanded and moved to the banks of the Scioto River downtown, he was commissioned to design an addition to the Neoclassical building that was once Central High School. If you stand on the river side of the building you see the old school, on the other side is the modern addition which is a huge curved structure with an exterior made of concrete panels with a corrugated metal entrance rotunda. It's just beautiful, especially at night, and is a crown jewel for us.
By the way, this is the place that had a working Rotor (Centripetal Generotor, it was called) that operated seasonally in an outdoor interactive area on the school building side. It was an old Chance ride that was moved from somewhere in Maine and was reconfigured and "themed" to a generator. It was cute, with a giant horseshoe magnet pointed at the side of the drum. Sadly, it reached the end of its service life (as they say) and was removed.

I was just thinking about the price comparison from the 70s and wondering if the perception of it being more unaffordable to go to Disney now is really less about the price than it is about expectation and advertising. Were the Disney parks as heavily advertised on TV back then as they are now? It seems now that there's an expectation that if you don't take your kid to Disney you've somehow failed as a parent, like every child deserves Disney magic. As a kid 70s/early 80s I remember Disneyland as some far away place that might be fun but I had no expectation of ever going there. I knew it existed but I don't remember thinking about it much until high school when two of my friends went with their families. My kids many times when they were younger would ask why we haven't gone to Disneyland or Disneyworld yet like it's something that everyone does. Maybe we're far more aware now due to heavy advertisment of all the things we can't have.

Paisley said:

Were the Disney parks as heavily advertised on TV back then as they are now?

Yes, and no.

Back in the 50s, Walt signed on with ABC to produce a weekly hour-long series named Disneyland. ABC got a series from one of the country's most popular people, and Walt got a weekly hour to, among other things, talk about the Disneyland theme park. Some episodes were devoted to the park; others used the "main attraction" of the episode as a hook to add a segment about the park. Davy Crockett episodes would include a visit to Frontierland, for example. Short story long, Walt got himself an hour each week to promote his park (and his studio's films) to a national audience.

As the construction at Walt Disney World progressed, the show, by then renamed and airing on NBC, was used to promote the Florida park.

Back then, there were only three national networks (CBS, NBC and ABC), and the impending opening of an East Coast Disney park was, of course, catnip to local and national broadcasters. The company was able to generate lots of free publicity. And advertising didn't have to be spread across half a million cable networks.

So the park wasn't as heavily advertised, but it was also hard to miss noticing that Disney was building something in Florida.

It seems now that there's an expectation that if you don't take your kid to Disney you've somehow failed as a parent, like every child deserves Disney magic.

I'd argue against the idea that a parent who hasn't taken their kid(s) to Disney has failed somehow. Different families have different priorities.

And certainly one aspect of Disney's continuing popularity is that "Disney magic" has so many access points. These parents might promise their kids a trip to WDW if they behave, while those parents might promise a visit to the Disney Store where they can pick a toy if they behave, and a third family might use the purchase of the newest Disney movie (when it's on sale at Target, don't tell the kids) as an incentive.

...why we haven't gone to Disneyland or Disneyworld yet like it's something that everyone does

It's worth remembering that, like today, back in 1971 WDW was an upscale resort. You didn't go to WDW to visit theme parks, you went to WDW to stay in luxury hotels and enjoy the resort's various options such as golfing, horseback riding -- and the on-site theme park.

There was a statistic put up in one of these Disney threads (maybe this one? I lack Lord Gonchar's ability to conjure past posts and threads) that the average Disney vacation costs more than 80% of the US population spends on all their vacations for the entire year. I suspect these was true back then as well. I don't think Walt Disney World has ever been "something that everyone does".

I'm sort of somewhere between you guys. I do believe it has traditioanlly been something everyone does - but that it was more a rite of passage sort of thing...something special. Most people went to WDW once in their childhood. At least that's how I always thought of it.

I didn't know anyone that went multiple times. It was one of those family vacations that everyone did one summer...and likely dropped a decent chunk on it.

Not sure how much of a reality that actually was but it was certainly my perception pretty much until I discovered you wackos and the internet.

With that said, I didn't get there until I was 26. And we went more than a few times those couple of years we lived in Jacksonville from 1999-2001. Back then FL resident tickets were $99 for four days. I've been back once since then. In 2009. So maybe that mentality is still ingrained in me a little? It's one thing when it's an hour or two down the road. It's another when it becomes an actual vacation using time and money that could be spent on other vacational pursuits.

But I think that also shapes my ideas of how people visit and try to make the most of it. (to tie it back to the other thread) I imagine it being a relative rarity and cost & time sacrifice to do the mandatory once-in-a-childhood WDW vacation that the kids will remember forever.

See, when I was young, I don't remember knowing anyone who had been to Walt Disney World. It might be because I'm old (I may not look old.... but, please, don't go look at the portrait in the attic...). It may be that I grew up in little, tiny southern Michigan towns where a lot of people did not have a lot of money. Heck, my official high school senior trip was a trip to Cedar Point that lasted less than 24 hours.

So I don't have any -- context? -- for thinking of a trip to WDW as a rite of passage or something everyone does.

... until I discovered you wackos and the internet.

How did we ever live without the Internet? :-) I spent so much time as a kid writing letters to amusement parks asking for brochures and maps.

Yeah, I think when I was a kid (born in '73), WDW was something you got to do once. I technically had my first visit when I was 1 or something, but really I didn't get there until 17, the summer before my senior year of high school. My parents were divorced when I was super young, so I was with my dad and brother on that trip. DHS had just opened, and I remember it being a highlight, if a little light on stuff to do.

As a parent today, I can't say that taking my kid there would be a priority if we didn't live next door. I'm sure we would do it before he hit 10, but it wouldn't be something I was dreaming about every day, certainly. Living in the PNW totally changed my perspective about travel.

slithernoggin said:

There was a statistic put up in one of these Disney threads (maybe this one? I lack Lord Gonchar's ability to conjure past posts and threads) that the average Disney vacation costs more than 80% of the US population spends on all their vacations for the entire year.

I would be inclined to believe this statement. (Bear with me, we will get there I promise.)

Disney has the market down to a science for the Florida Resident at least. Few of my buddies went to Disney in Dec. 2014, so I figured why not. Book a room at Pop, and had to get the seasonal tickets for me and my girl, because anything else would have been overpriced and stupid. I was there 4 days I think, Ate at a couple places nothing crazy, I think Monsieur Paul was the highlight. The rest of the time everything was relatively cheap. We came away a little lighter in the pockets, but nothing more than a normal vacation, I think the hotel was $80/night.

But, the tickets, I had dropped $600-650 I think in tickets. This is where the problem begins, and where the not so crazy expensive vacation just became really expensive. I'm sure some Disney marketing exec somewhere got a pat on the back for this. The tickets are priced cheap enough that everyone buys them, but now I've got this reason to go back, with the logic that it is easy and won't be too expensive.

My second trip 5 more days, this time at Coronado. (I wasn't staying in the cell block that is Pop another time, that was for sure.) $200/night. We went to Narcoosee's, Jiko, Artist Point. California Grill. I forget where lunch was, but we managed to drop another $1000 not including the hotel. With all these great food options, why not try them right? Surely we aren't packing a lunch because while it is possible, Disney makes it about as impossible as it gets. Of course this isn't where it ends.

Figured food/wine, so lets hit it one more time before the tickets expire. 4 days/3 nights. Book at the Wilderness Lodge, because of course I went to the Artist Point and the place looked really cool. $280/night. But wait, three days before I arrive the elusive theme park view in Contemporary opens up, at discounted rate, well how could I pass that up. I have never stayed in what is probably the most recognizable hotel on property in the tower before. Ok, now we are at $450/night. Monsieur Paul, Citricos, Yachtman's, for food, because we need to try them, plus a ton of stops around Epcot for the food booths. I think we were in the neighborhood of $250/day in food costs, so again $1000 not including the hotel.

But wait, somehow we managed two free nights at the Polynesian Concierge level, so we run back up one more time in November, catch the last day of the food festival, and drop another $700 before those tickets expired. I don't think Disney banked as much on that last trip as the rest of them, but still.

Now, those seasonal passes, that sounded like a good idea a year ago, just became really stupid expensive, I wouldn't have gone back otherwise, and I would have visited other parks with the cash I spent. I'm guessing Disney made off with $8000 all said and done, of course the math is really rough for that figure, I don't really know what I gave them.

I could have gone on a bunch of vacations to all my other parks, a cruise, whatever and probably still had some left over. The moral was that Disney coasts way more, for sure. If you are going there, do yourself the favor, but the more expensive tickets initially that way you lower the incentive to return, because that pass sounds great until you go back 3 more times and realize you spent a fortune.

If you are able to drive in and back out, great, I'm three hours away and that isn't an option. Yes, I know I didn't have to stay at those other hotels, or eat so expensive, but once you start going there and seeing the offerings you want to participate. Why else would Disney cart you all over the resort to the restaurants. Those restaurants were the gateway for me to open up the wallet.

Would I change it? Nope, not a thing, place is amazing if you are into that sort of thing!

Edit: Oh, yeah, those MagicTrackers they put on your wrist make it ridiculously easy to spend without keeping track. They are truly artists at emptying your wallet.

You don't even want to know what happens when you get into the cruises...

Out of curiosity, I ran the 1971 Polynesian prices through the good ol' BLS inflation calculator. The prices in 1971 dollars ($26 - $44 a night) are, in 2015 dollars, $169 - $257.

TheMillenniumRider: Disney Parks, and WDW in particular, are indeed masters of the art of separating people from their money. There have been, oh, a gazbillion studies over the years showing that people spend more when using credit cards rather than cash -- around 12-18% more. Magicbands, I suspect, show a similar spread between Magicband and credit card use, since now you don't even have to pull out that credit card and possibly have a moment's hesitation about charging the purchase.

There is no way, realistically, to fail to add the cost of getting somewhere into the equation. Where I end up going is largely a matter of finding the cheapest airfares. I made only two trips to theme parks outside my immediate area this year and both were dictated by price. When Frontier offered a roundtrip fare from Philly to Charlotte for $103, it was a no-brainer. And when the fare from Philly to Salt Lake City dropped from $785 to $303, I ended up at Lagoon. I can't even fly to Evansville, IN for that price so had to give Thunderbird a miss. Jeff's comment about saving $158 a month is simply not realistic for some people. As to Disney, taking into consideration the cost of travel, accommodations and admission to the park, it's unlikely that I'll ever get there in this lifetime - unless I hit the lottery or inherit a lot of money.

Travel costs are not unique to Disney World, or anywhere else.

Anything is possible depending on your priorities.