Dick's best quote ever

I know SF's per cap number includes them. I always assumed CF's did too.

SF's works out to about $20 at the gate and $20 elsewhere last I checked.

EDIT - Look Here at the last SF release. First line, third paragraph:

Guest spending per capita of $36.70 for the quarter was down 4% from the prior-year quarter's per capita guest spending of $38.34, reflecting decreases in admissions, food and beverages, games and merchandise.

They're including admissions in per cap. I'm pretty sure CF is too, guys.

Per caps are beyond the admission price. Cedar Point is one of the best parks out there with the numbers, even without a lineup of extra pay attractions. Cedar Point, however has many discounts on the gate price. They are probably in the 65-70% range, which is still strong. Getting $.70 on the dollar for full price is good.

Most Six Flags are pulling around 45-55%. The Busch Parks are getting 85% and up. Superior products don't have soda can promotions in their mind. While the Orlando parks are packaged with other parks, Busch Gardens Virginia and Sea World California and Texas are what they are.

Bottom line, 3 million folks averaging $31.50 each, that ads up, plus the per caps make a load of money to count each day.

Agent Johnson said:
Per caps are beyond the admission price.

Then someone please explain this to me:

2007 CF report detailing net revenues

On page two it breaks net revenues into three areas - admissions, food/games/merch, and resort and gives a total of $986.973,000

Then on a seperate report for the same year (right under the MF picture on page 1) that number is listed as "Net revenues" and is the starting point for figuring the "Combined in-park guest per capita spending" of $40.60

That number absolutely includes admissions dollars.

What am I missing?

Looking at the numbers quickly, I can't get to their per cap number. Looking at total revenue, the calculation is higher than what they show. Backing out lodging/other gets you closer to what they show but not all the way there. So there must be something else they are taking out of revenues to get the per cap number or they are bumping up attendance numbers for some reason in the calculation.

But that being said, I would think that because admissions are more than 50% of revenues that they are included in the per cap number. Not sure how you would get to the $40.60 number without including admissions. And I would expect that the contribution to the per cap number is pro rata so that the admissions would contribution a little more than 1/2 of the per cap number. There may be variations on a park by park basis in terms of contribution and per cap numbers though so I am not sure what the CP numbers would look like.

GoBucks89 said:
Looking at the numbers quickly, I can't get to their per cap number.

Neither could I, but I'm attributing that to my own stupidity. :)

But I still came to the same conclusion as you - Admission is most certainly counted in the per cap numbers. There's no way to get there without it.

Jeff said:
I wouldn't think so. I mean, I would read that to mean no one spends any money inside the park.

I think it means that once discounts and season pass holders are considered, they're only getting about $25 at the gate as a company.

I think it's funny that as much as we talk the business side of things around here that we all weren't on the same page. I mean there's a pretty big difference between spending $40 once you've already paid to get into the park and spending $40 total for your day at the park.

Maybe that's why I never understood why people thought amusement parks were overpriced - because we're talking two drastically different numbers?

EDIT - not to keep harping (too late, huh?) but page 6 of this March 2007 SF presentation shows quite clearly that they do include admission in the per cap number.

So there must be something else they are taking out of revenues to get the per cap number

In-park advertising/sponsorships? For example, you can bet that John Deere pays for that little mower/tractor display along the fenceline between Corkscrew and Magnum.

On page 3 of this annual report summary, they broke out the out-of-park revenues. Subtracting that amount gets us a lot closer to their calculated per cap, anyway.

Brian Noble said:

So there must be something else they are taking out of revenues to get the per cap number

In-park advertising/sponsorships? For example, you can bet that John Deere pays for that little mower/tractor display along the fenceline between Corkscrew and Magnum.

I expect they may pay CP money for that display. But I would expect that amount to be included in the Lodging/Other revenue line item. If you back out the Lodging/other revenue amount and then divide by attendance, you get very close but not exactly to the $40.60/cap number (result is a little too high). If you back out the larger out of park number on page 3, you get a per cap that is lower than what they disclose though again very close. Typically in financial statements, if you cannot pretty easily make the calculation, there is a footnote or some other indication which shows the adjustments as to how the calculation was made. As a former employee, I say boo Deloitte.

But I agree that as for the reason the cap numbers were brought up in the first place, admission price counts and that for all the CF parks, guests spend about $40 per visit.

Per Cedar Fair's 10-K,

"In-park guest per capita spending represents the amount spent per attendee to gain admission to a park plus all amounts spent while inside the park gates."

Carrie, you are correct, it talks a lot about in-park per cap vs out of park revenues (hotels) as separate items.

Here's another quote - note that PARKING is included in the per-cap:
"Combined guest per capita spending includes all amusement park, outdoor water park, causeway tolls and parking revenues for the amusement park and water park operating seasons. Revenues from indoor water park, hotel, campground, marina and other out-of-park operations are excluded from per capita statistics."

So including parking, admission, food, and games, the average person only pays $40 for a day at the park. Wow.

TerraCoaster said:
So including parking, admission, food, and games, the average person only pays $40 for a day at the park. Wow.

Exactly. Am I the only one who understood this?

It should be as simple as:

per cap x attendance = revenue

TerraCoaster said:
Carrie, you are correct, it talks a lot about in-park per cap vs out of park revenues (hotels) as separate items.

Thank you. :)

That 10-K is full of interesting stuff. $100 invested in Cedar Fair in 2003 would be worth $36 at the end of 2008.

Also they make a lot of reference to the golden tickets in their park descriptions calling it an "international survey" and using them to somehow prove how good their parks are. I find that funny considering the thread related to the golden tickets and how much everyone on these boards respects them

^ I have a mold respect for the G-Tix, but I wouldn't visit a park JUST because it has one.

but season passes would attribute to that low #, correct? When we look at attendance we count every time a SP holder walks through... right?

I expect so. Besides, I think I was guilty of bringing up the per-cap in the first place, and I think my point was perhaps lost in the discussion. I mentioned the "admission per-cap" (not the overall per-cap) but what I was really getting at was what we tech types call the "street price". When you look at some gadget, you hear about the "manufacturers suggested retail price". Nobody actually pays that price, of course, unless it's an Apple gadget*; the price most people pay (not necessarily the lowest price) is the "street price", the price you'll pay from a reputable discounter.

In the amusement park business, very few people pay the gate price, of course, unless it's a Disney park*; the price most people pay (not necessarily the lowest price) is what I was getting at, the sort of standard beverage can discount or online or advance rate. My point is that at Cedar Point, that price really hasn't gone up much from the $20 of a couple of decades ago.

There is a per-cap for everything, by the way. Cedar Point even calculates a per-cap for each ride, in this case their operating cost for each ride on a per-rider basis. Beverage per-cap was how Will Koch figured out how much to add to the ticket price to make the "free" drink program revenue neutral.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

*Hmmm. Disney tickets sell for retail, Apple gizmos sell for retail. And both companies have Steve Jobs in common. Coincidence?

--DCAjr

RideMan said:
*Hmmm. Disney tickets sell for retail, Apple gizmos sell for retail. And both companies have Steve Jobs in common. Coincidence?

--DCAjr

I know you're probably not 100% serious, but I'll bite anyway. Yes, I'm willing to bet my life that it is purely coincidence. I don't think Disney has ever been much of an outside discounter (as far as things like pop cans and such go), at least certainly not in the last decade, likely longer. They are a premium vacation destination that sells an entire package that isn't quite as big a thing for Cedar Point. Now they may internally discount that premium price for things such as food and hotels, but to my recent knowledge they have never discounted the individual gate. Premium products/services tend to sell for "retail" across the board.

You were right; I was just trying to give the conspiracy theorists something to chew on. :)

It is interesting, though, that Disney *never* discounts their gate. At Disney, your ticket will be either full price, or free (!). Everybody else seems to play the discount game, even Busch. On the other hand, Disney seems to lead the pack in doing discounts for hotels, restaurants, vacation packages...pretty much everything but the basic park admission ticket.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I think we both know why that is, though. Disney is the main attraction in Orlando, and other than Universal, the only real all inclusive resort destination in town. Sea World and BGT are additions for most, not the main reason they come down. Disney can't discount that single admission because those are the people that (99% of the time) aren't spending their whole vacation at Disney, but are just visiting for one day, or are locals who don't have a pass.

I would think that most people are not looking at any given component of their trip (whether its for 1 day or for multiple days) in terms of price but at the cost of everything. So if they are saving $200 on the trip, they don't really care if that was with discounts on food, lodging or admission tickets. So what is discounted doesn't matter unless you are not buying what is being discounted. By not discounting admission prices, Disney encourages folks to stay at their resorts to take advantage of their discounts on food and lodging (thus bringing in more revenues for Disney). Other parks that have more one day visitors don't have that ability. Most significant thing they can discount is admission tickets (and maybe some discount food packages).

It doesn't matter why. The point is, Disney Does Not Discount Admissions. Sure, some plans are cheaper than others, but you WILL pay list price.

What I take from that is the 'premium product' philosophy. Of course I think the pricing integrity is gone when they assume that all of their parks carry the same value but that is a topic for another discussion...

--Dave Althoff, Jr.