designer and manufacturer question

Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:32 AM
In the case of let's say, B&M's Hulk and Nemesis, Giovanloa supplies the track for all B&M rides. Werner Stengel and John Wardley designed these rides, respectively. What was B&M's part in the ride? these aren't considered Giovanola rides, so what was their part?

Also, I read that Alan Schilke was the designer of X. Does this mean he came up with the layout himself, or more just supervised, or did everything himself. Probably not everything, but I am confused.

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I am one.
I am Turbo.
Top Thrill in the front row... anything else is lame
X...Whoa

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:34 AM
.. actually B&M track is manufactured in southern Ohio last I knew.. Custom made for them..

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June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100
VertiGo Rides - 82

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:36 AM
From what I read on a website, it was manufactured by Giovanola, which I believe has a plant in Ohio.

http://www.************.com/information/thirdparties.shtml

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I am one.
I am Turbo.
Top Thrill in the front row... anything else is lame
X...Whoa

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 6:23 AM
That's not correct. Giovanola has nothing to do with the manufacture of the track. B&M simply outsources all of their fabrication. In the US, it's by Southern Ohio Fabricators, I believe. I thought there was another company out west that has also done it.

Compare this to Intamin, which does their stuff in their own facility, and is ridiculously secretive about it (as if rail bending was something no one else could do). Then you have Arrow, which after many years finally realized it was cheaper to outsource their fabrication, after making the steel for X nearly killed them.

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 6:48 AM
thanks jeff, maybe coasterf*rce was wrong, but what about the second part of my question?

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I am one.
I am Turbo.
Top Thrill in the front row... anything else is lame
X...Whoa

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 7:01 AM
Wardley basically does layout conception for the Alton Towers rides. That is, he comes up with a basic layout and B&M engineers it to their standards. Stengel actually does not design for B&M, but does do other work for them on all of their projects (ie force calculations).

I believe Giovanola used to fabricate for B&M's European coasters, but I'm not sure if they still do or not.

Alan Schilke works for Arrow, and was basically the engineer in charge of the X project. So yes, he designed the layout and ride system.

-Nate

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Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:46 PM
From talking to various engineers, there are generally a few different functions various people engage in. Someone can do a profile/layout, in a basic sense, and that's it. Then you may have separate people who do force analysis and tweak the layout/profile (to produce more airtime or whatever), people who calculate the proper turn banking, people who do supports or structures, people who do foundations... there's a lot to do.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Blogs, photo albums - CampusFish
What time does the water show start?

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 4:18 AM

coasterdude318 said:
Stengel actually does not design for B&M, but does do other work for them on all of their projects (ie force calculations).

Not quite true: The Stengel office did infact design all B&M Loopers. The contributions are entitled: "Design and Dynamics". Take for example the "zero-g roll" (or "revolution" as it was called for the inverted coasters). B&M came up with the idea of the inversion, but they went to Stengel to transform the idea into a rideable element. The same goes for the other elements which are all calculated and therefore designed by the Stengel Team (he doesn´t do it all on his own).

What Walter and Claude do, apart from being the faces that show up on coaster openings is the whole process of planning and executing the coasters.

Especially the rolling stock is the signature part of a B&M coaster. The different cars, seating arrangements and their perfection are all done by B&M, as well as ground survey (which is one of the most important but overlooked aspects of building a ride).

Take for example the Zamperla Volare: The whole Tracklayout is designed by Stengel, while the cars and the tracks are done by Zamperla. So who is to blame for the underwhelming outcome?


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Nancy and Lee. Back in 04.

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 11:20 AM
Actually, I'm almost positive that B&M do all of their own layouts and designs. Stengel consults, sure, but the design/layout is up to either Walter or Claude (one does layouts, the other does the mechanics and trains, though I can't remember which is which). Stengel does, however, do all the layouts/designs for Intamin, which is even further evidence that he doesn't do layouts for B&M (ie if he does layouts for both, why do they not resemble each other at all?).

-Nate

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 12:07 PM
Hi Nate,

I have a reference list of all Stengel projects up until late 2001, including project numbers and involvement. I don´t have it at hand at the moment, but I will have a look at it tomorrow and will give you some excerpts. Its much more a question what the Stengel team did NOT design (including Premier, Zamperla, flatrides and numerous rides which have never been built.)

The Book "Roller Coaster - Der Achterbahndesigner Werner Stengel" by Klaus Schützmansky is sort of a bible concerning all questions about Stengel, his work and life. (including things you just don´t want to know;))

It was conceived as a catalogue for an exhibition to honor Stengels work in the "german museum" in Munich. You might have guessed that it is all written in german.

Inside you will find lots of construction sketches and even computer graphics of B&M inversions/tracks.

You mentioned that Intamin and B&M rides don´t have much in common. Just take a look at Colossus at Thorpe Park and the Intamin inverters. Apart from trackstyle and rolling stock, the designs are nearly exchangable.

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i was a teenage rollercoaster designer

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 1:23 PM
Stengel spoke to the ECC at Holiday Park in Germany and remembering back, I'm inclined to agree with tricktrack about Stegel's involvement.

Stengel is very versatile, too, and even if you look at a list of the coasters he has done (a remarkable list), then you'll see a lot of different styles - basically, you cannot just look at one of his coasters and think "Yeah, that's a Stengel coaster", as he has no particular style that he sticks to.

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:36 PM
Sure, but if (for example) Stengel designed B&M and Intamin hypers, then wouldn't they be fairly similar? Instead, they're drastically different.

The same goes for looping coasters. B&M rides have a very distinct style that's identical for all of their rides (basically in terms of transitions, but also in order of elements, etc). Thorpe's Colossus is very different, and the Intamin inverted coasters even moreso.

All that said, it seems the connections between B&M-Stengel-Intamin-Giovanola are somewhat of a mystery in the industry, and it's hard to say for certain who did what and when. I would be interested to hear from someone who could explain it all, but I'm not sure anyone can do that (not even the people involved!). Perhaps the list of Stengel's work you (tricktrack) have is more thorough than the ones that I have seen that basically just list the project and not who did what. It's just always been my understanding that Stengel does consulting (and things like force calculation) for B&M and does different things for other companies (ie layout design for Intamin). Certainly Marcus is right that you can't look at a ride and be able to tell who designed it, but I think B&M, for example, have their own distinct style, and it's hard to imagine that if someone else came in for them to do a layout that style would be retained in the outside-designed rides.

-Nate

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Sunday, October 12, 2003 2:42 PM
Whats different is the fact that the maneuvers that Beemer trains can negotiate at comfortable levels for the riders is much different from that of an Intamin, or a Premier.

Stengal designs the ride based on the requirements and parameters that the company gives him.

There are more similarities then you may first see in his designs.

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If I was part of a coaster, I would be an upstop pad on an Arrow Mine Train.
MAGNUM HAD MY BABY!
*** This post was edited by MagnumForce 10/12/2003 6:59:12 PM ***

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