But above, you said "So Vekoma installed trimbrakes between the large boomerang and the small(er) loop. So the train would be braked there, no matter of the direction it was in. So the train on a return run would fall down, go through the loop, be braked, and therefore no longer has enough speed to get through the larger boomerang". The ride is still stalling with or without braking and can't operate even if there is a small breeze (it was closed for this reason at Movie World on one of the days we were there).
Reagarding capacity: looking at the specs, capacity is 1010 per hour. There is no way on EARTH that the ride gets anywhere NEAR this capacity, even overlooking the fact it's theoretical.
Regarding the design, whether it was or was not right of Six Flags to buy the ride with it's design, the design of the trains is an undeniable flaw - I don't see how any park can find the staggered seating anything but intensely awkward.
I'm not a Vekoma nay-sayer who hates everything they do, by the way. I happen to love Thunder Mountain, Revolution (Bobbijaanland) and many of their other rides, but Deja Vu is just a logistical nightmare.
Regards, Marcus
Coaster Kingdom: Tidal Wave review
*** This post was edited by Marcus Sheen on 1/19/2003. ***
DRNK said:
They insisted Vekoma would have the GIB's up and running way before they where supposed to be up and running, or Six Flags wouldn't pay their bills
Well, gosh, who would have thought that an amusment park would want a 2001 attraction to actually open in 2001! I'm sorry, but if Six Flags rushed the GIB's into operation, then your arguments get even worse. Six Flags wanted all of the Deja Vu's to open in April or May. When did they finally open? August (And September, for SFGAm). When was Vekoma planning on opening these things, December?
This whole notion that Six Flags "rushed" Vekoma is pure BS. Just thought you'd like to know.
Anyway, DV has problems, and this was one ride I was never comfortable at working. I was always extremely on edge, because at any given time a problem was likely to occur. It was just a mess, I'll put it like that. I have little confidence in this ride from an operational standpoint.
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Is that a Q-bot in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
First of all the GIB's are incredible rides. Dejavu at SFGAm was running great the last day of the season. At the end of the night they were having some problems with the restraints though.
I like the staggered seating. To fix the problem of crossing over all you would have to do is have it load from both sides. Poorly designed stations not trains.
I think the bugs are being worked out fairly well now.
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WOOD: It does a body good.
"The ride is still stalling with or without braking and can't operate even if there is a small breeze (it was closed for this reason at Movie World on one of the days we were there)." Please don't believe what MovieWorld staff tells you. They are absolutely unreliable. A GIB is capable of operating even with a small breeze, it's just MovieWorld policy to close down smaller rides when there are few guests in the park. They always find some kind of lame excuse..
There is a big difference between capacity and theoretical capacity. I can't think of a ride which can actually fulfill it's theoretical capacity. A GIB is just a low-capacity ride. You could turn it into a high capacity ride by adding a second train (no, that's not a stupid remark) but that would make the ride twice as expensive. A GIB is just a farely cheap but exciting ride, which is *not* designed for a major amusement park, just like the boomerang.
I can do nothing but agree on you concerning the seating. It looks strange, the GP has no clue where to sit, and it slows down the loading process. I haven't a clue why Vekoma would have preferred this seating above standard 4-across seating.
When you purchase a prototype, you *know* in advance that it might not meet it's deadline. Deja Vu didn't meet it's deadline, X didn't meet it's deadline, and so did many other prototypes. Six Flags tends to bankrupt companies if they miss their deadlines, like they bankrupted Vekoma and like they bankrupted Arrow. So I hope you can imagine that building a prototype for Six Flags is a rather stressfull experience. Your company is at stake.
There are indeed two pairs of brakes on a GIB, as on a normal boomerang. But Six Flags insisted these brakes could also trim. As I said before..
Of course Six Flags isn't the only one to blame for the "mal-functioning" of the GIB, but they made an imperfect situation worse.
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Dutch Coastin' :: European coasters, thrills and theming!
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It's Giant, it's Inverted, it's a Boomerang, Beeyatch!
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Dutch Coastin' :: European coasters, thrills and theming!
There are NO TRIMS AND NO TRIMMING ON GIBS OR BOOMERANGS. DRNK, you've been proved wrong. You are wrong. There's no trims. Give up. It's OK. We won't make fun of you for being wrong.
DRNK Emphatically stated:
Six Flags tends to bankrupt companies if they miss their deadlines, like they bankrupted Vekoma and like they bankrupted Arrow. So I hope you can imagine that building a prototype for Six Flags is a rather stressfull experience. Your company is at stake.
OK...so you're going to blame Arrow's and Vekoma's bankruptcies of SF? When a company goes bankrupt, it is not because of just a ride not working right. Chapter 11's are filed when a company doesn't have enough income coming in to pay for previous debt. Chapter 11 is often called "Bankruptcy Protection". It allows the company to restructure both themselves as well as their debts so as to be able to continue on and (hopefully) turn themselves around.
Look at CCI, they went bankrupt, who was at fault? In many circles, people wil say it was their ownership/management due to under bidding projects and planning on future projects to pay for current projects. That type over-leveraging of income spells impending doom. Is it not possible that THAT is what caused Arrow and Vekoma to file for Chapter 11 protection? Both companies had seen a decline in projects coming their way...with that decline in revenue - coupled with the fact that their fixed expenses were not decreasing, certainly caused just as much damage (if not more) than SF withholding their final payments to the two companies for malfunctioning coasters...
EDIT: See this link for more information of Bankruptcy and Chapter 11 Reoganization... http://bankruptcylawhelp.com/New_Pages/ch11.htm
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--George H
---Superman the ride...coming to a SF park near you soon...
*** This post was edited by redman822 on 1/20/2003. ***
accented letters
à = hold alt and type 133 on the keyboard
é = alt 130
hold alt and type the numbers 128 and on, you will get accented letters
As many others have said, the brakes are not used as trims. As far as I know they're for e-stops, although they may work in valleying circumstances too.
The notion that "the computers are cold" doesn't hold much water, I'm afraid... the computer rooms are rull climate controlled (heat and a/c) even in the offseason.
Deja Vu can operate in pretty much any wind condition that other coasters can (never went down for wind at SFOG).
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Is that a Q-bot in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
Speedy said:I think the low capacity has more to do with lazy ride ops. If the ride was like at Disneyland or CP it could get a much higher capacity
First of all, Have you ever been to sfgam? Secondly, If you haven't been there how would you know all the ride ops are lazy. I would like to see you do that job. It's easy for you to sit at home and bash employees on your computer but since you've probably never been there and the fact you blame ride ops before you'll blame the non full circuit track and the one train operation shows that you have nothing valuable to say in this situation. I will give you some friendly advice. Watch what you say, some of people on this message board are six flags ride ops would you like to call them lazy. And if by the offchance you live in california and you're homepark is sfmm then what you said was hysterically ironic.
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'out the 100Base-T, through the router, down the OC3, over the leased line, off the bridge, past the firewall......nothin' but Net.
*** This post was edited by Colonel Sanders on 1/20/2003. ***
Well, I can think of 2 prototypes that SF bought.
First, Iron Wolf, back in 1990, and Batman the Ride back in 1992. Wow, SF bought 2 prototypes from the same company in 2 years and at the same park! Man Wally and Claudie must have been nuts. B&M should be bankrupt, long live Ron Toomer.
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WOOD: It does a body good.
DRNK, did Arrow or Vekoma sue Six Flags for witholding funds? No. This suggests to me that Six Flags had agreements with these companies (almost certainly in the form of contracts) that if the rides were not comepleted, they did not receive money. Since Vekoma was banking on getting paid by a certain time, I'd be willing to bet that they promised to get the GIBs done long before they were actually comepleted.
Also, think for a moment what you're saying: They are protoypes, as you've mentioned several times. And prototypes often have problems. So, stop saying that they don't have problems, and just admit that they have the kinds of problems many prototypes do. 'Cause I will give you this much, when it comes ot SF being at fault: It was a really bad move on their part to order three identical prototypes simultaneously.
Okay, lets not be spiteful people. Thanks for following up your post, DRNK.
Regards, Marcus
Coaster Kingdom: Batman La Fuga review
SFGreat American,
I do not blame SF for ordering three identical prototypes at the same time. Obviously, Vekoma didn' think there'd be any problems meeting the schedules or they'd tell SF that the couldn't handle doing three prototypes at the same time.
If Vekoma wasn't already beginning to be strapped for cash (like Arrow with X) they would not have agreed so freely with SF's request(s) and payment terms, IMHO. Both Arrow and Vekoma just looked at the bottom line of how much money would come in if they took the orders and not what would happen to them as companies if there ended up being problems with getting the rides working, thus delaying their getting paid for the projects.
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--George H
---Superman the ride...coming to a SF park near you soon...
What is sounds like is that Arrow and Vekoma should have made “milestones” in their contracts with SF. Most of the contracts I dealt with have set milestones and payments associated with each. Using X as an example:
Milestone 1: Design – complete design of coaster including: site survey, calculations, plan and profile, cut sheets, electrical diagrams, etc ----- Cost $150,000.00
Milestone 2: Manufacture and Delivery – includes all manufacturing of parts and equipment and delivery to site. --------- Cost $8,000,000.00. (At this point SF has everything they need to build the coaster, plans, track, trains, etc.)
Milestone 3: Construction – includes steel erection, footers, wiring, etc. ----- Cost $1,500,000.00 (at the end of this phase SF has a working roller coaster)
Total Cost equals $9,650,000.00
Now let’s add incentives or liquidated damages. To do this a notice to proceed and a set number of construction days need to be agreed upon for each milestone. Now set an early completion date, and a drop-dead date for each milestone. Now assess incentives and damages according to the completion date of each milestone (say $1000.00 per day). So if Arrow completed the design of “X” 10 days before the drop-dead date (+10,000.00), the manufacture of all items 15 days before the drop-dead date (+15,000.00) but the ride opened 3 months pass the drop dead date (-90,000.00) The total cost of the ride would be $9,585,000.00.
I’m not absolutely certain how these contracts between ride companies work, but with “X” being such the incredible, unique, coaster that it is – I would have thought that Arrow could have held the cards on this one and made a lot of money even if it opened two years late.
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edit: formatting
*** This post was edited by Zingo on 1/20/2003. ***
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