Cedar Point Operations

I'd be kissing the ride op if I was assigned row 17 on the Beast... because that's the best seat!

RayP1970:

...it prevents people from clogging the front and back...

And this has always seemed like a self-solving problem, provided there are enough people in the station to keep the row queues full without overcrowding the station to the point of obscuring empty or nearly-empty rows. Seems like there are always enough people who would rather ride sooner than ride in any particular row.

I wonder if it's a combination of empowering employees with the directive and authority to assign rows without also empowering them to use common sense and judgement.

Only if a front row queue is so full that it’s blocking traffic and preventing other riders from getting to their seats is the time to deny a polite request. I mean, if I already waited however long and if I’m willing to wait another however many cycles for my turn then that’s on me. Let me scoot to the back row and I can assure you that someone behind me will be willing to ride right now and they won’t be hard to find.
But it’s not about me…
I will say in my long riding career, I can count on one and a half hands the number of times I’ve been denied a request, even at Kings Island. Maybe it’s my puppy dog eyes. (The ones that hide deadly laser beams)

BrettV:
Iron Dragon, Gemini and Corkscrew are only able to run two trains now. In fact they have parted out the third train on each of the rides for parts

Given the supply side issues of the last few years, and the age of Arrows, I can unfortunately see this as making sense. And, unfortunately, people also seem to be slower to do things than in the past. Oh, back to the good ole days of 4 or more trains on Mine Ride... Or the days when Blue Streak ran two trains and still had the older PTC restraints and the old station...

Sunday, May 21, Gemini had a 45 minute wait. Two trains on each side. I've never seen this before. Is the new norm? Possibly. Lines were really long that day, and it was noticeable that a lot of coaster lines moved very slowly.

Early in the year at any seasonal amusement park it is normal to have longer than average waits until ride crews are established and develop their rhythm as a team.

What iROC has done to parks is the bigger issue, IMO. If one were to go to Disney and see how ride procedures flow, knowing that Cedar Point used to have a similar flow pumping through guests, then look at Cedar Point today and see how restricted/controlled everything has become, iROC procedures/policies have had a negative impact. Cedar Fair was a leader in both ride safety and procedures for the industry and were often called upon by other parks, why they basically gave it away makes no sense.

^ (ABOVE)

BrettV,

Absolutely! And Peggy. Went back to CP over Memorial Day weekend for the first time in 20 years. Took my family. Many departments have improved, while it seems like ParkOps has completely changed.

I will say, the park looks absolutely beautiful and in shape from the last time I was there (WWL was still a thing).

The employees appear to be trying, but IROC is a mess and is holding back possible potential. At least 'People gotta eat' was a mentality that has been resolved (at least from what I saw during my visit).

-Ryan

I googled to see what Bill Spehn is up to these days and looks like he is working for Playhouse Square in Cleveland. I think Jack Falfas just does consulting work now. Peggy Bertsch I know retired. That’s a trio with lot of great operational knowledge that certainly could benefit a lot of parks out there.

I'm sure it's been covered, but what is it about iROC that slows everything down so much? I worked in rides at a SF park in the early/mid 90s and I'm having trouble understanding how a structured procedure screws things up. We kept it simple while still having some method to our madness and managed to pump people through. Every coaster I worked on, it was all about having the train ready to dispatch either ahead of the prior train clearing the block or the one behind being at a ready brake.

From what I can tell, their focus is not efficiency, it's risk reduction. You should certainly keep risk to a minimum, sure, but statistically you reach a point of diminishing returns. If I want to avoid being in a car accident, I can reduce that risk to zero by never leaving the house. I'm not saying that they go that far, but they're clearly not in the sweet spot. And we know this because the safety record of the parks has not fundamentally changed since "the old days," so what they do seems like a solution looking for a problem. And I always keep coming back to Disney and how vastly superior they are in operations.

What risk are they reducing and what are they doing to reduce that risk that slows down operations?

^ Yes

Jeff: From what I can tell, their focus is not efficiency, it's risk reduction

Jeff, good point. I believe you're right with this. While I'm just an engineer (materials / nuclear), I wonder if this is also going on...... creating new stringent procedures and policies in order to 'do something' to make safety 'more better' (grammar).

I'm sure many of us have seen it in our jobs where this is the case. Modifications are made to an existing policy or procedure, which currently have no issues, just to be able to make a change and show action. In the field of engineering, I see this quite a bit with security and safety issues.

BigBoy: What risk are they reducing and what are they doing to reduce that risk that slows down operations?

Here's an example. I'm at the age where my kids are just getting into riding rollercoasters. During our last visit, we went over to Jr. Gemini (or whatever it is now). The ride goes around the track two times. But, prior to sending the train for lap 2, the train is stopped and restraints are checked again. Why? Did something happen in the past where the restraints failed somewhere inbetween lap 1 < x < lap 2? If so, I can understand checking the restraints again; mid-run. If that's so, just mechanically fix the underlying issue. However, I don't think that's the case.

I will say, Wilderness Run's crew was polite and quick, but that policy, to me, seems to be off. Hats off to the crew for having to deal with that. Consider it a 2 lap ride from the start, keep it moving, and stop the train if some kid comes back (after lap 1) screaming and/or panicking.

GM: That’s a trio with lot of great operational knowledge that certainly could benefit a lot of parks out there

True. While it'd be nice to have all three back, it seems selfish of me to want them back. They all were good at their jobs, put the time in, got the gold watch, and have moved onto what they want to do.

I was amazed on the changes in the past 20 years: Breakers is the crown jewel on the peninsula again, respectable food, new Gemini midway, new entrance, new boardwalk, ugly screen is gone, the beach is now cleaned up. CP is moving forward in a lot of areas and I hope that we can soon say the same for ParkOps.

-Ryan

Of note, the current VP of Operations at Cedar Point worked with Kinzel/Falfas/Spehn/Bertsch for many years and knows the culture of efficiency that CP/Cedar Fair was legendary for in the industry. The institutional knowledge is still there, it would be great if corporate would remove the barriers.

LostKause:

Sunday, May 21, Gemini had a 45 minute wait. Two trains on each side. I've never seen this before. Is the new norm?

Sadly, pretty much. The park can have an average to moderately busy crowd and 30-45 min waits for even the old standbys like Gemini, Iron Dragon, Corkscrew, and Mine Ride are more common than not especially midday. Back in the day those are max 15 minute waits with the same crowd sizes. Heck that picture with a full queue was a “long”15 minute wait for a 6 train sub 1 minute dispatch Gemini (well if you picked the “back of train” queue and stairs to the right , the front was slower as the front seat line backed things up on that side)

On actually busy days an hour wait is common. They do need the 3rd trains, but it wouldn’t help given the poor intervals. I feel it’s a combination of loose article bins, IROC, lower staffing, extra seatbelts , and the general feeling you get when you watch it all in action that “just okay is good enough “ all cause some awful intervals. These rides stack 2 trains routinely now.

Jeff:
You should certainly keep risk to a minimum, sure, but statistically you reach a point of diminishing returns.

I can’t think of a better example of this than Mine Ride. They went from no belts , to a single belt per row, to individual belts per seat. The belts aren’t even a proxy measure on the ride, so are unnecessary. The only way you are getting out of the ride is if you take off the seatbelt and try to stand up which would be the same with 1 or 2 belts (I would even argue that 1 belt is safer, as the non stander might object to unbuckling what is their belt too) . The odds of getting ejected from mine ride went from zero to zero by adding a second individual belt. Prior with 1 belt they could check everyone from the unload side where the pedals were. 3 ops would check 2 cars each and they could run 3 trains no problem. Now they need an extra operator on the load side to check the belts over there. So the only thing that accomplished was slow down operations and they need more staffing.

They also made the minimum lap bar height lower on Mine Ride and since all three rows per car are part of the same mechanism it causes a lot of fussing around to get it locked.

You guys keep praising Bill Spehn. I worked for the guy. He was always extremely angry. One time, he screamed at a guest for not wearing a shirt. I mean, his first interaction with the guest was screaming at him. That's how he introduced himself to a paying customer. He screamed at me quite a few times, for things that were not my responsibility or that I had any control over. Maybe he was good at his job because everyone who worked for him was terrified of him when he walked through.

I will say that when he wasn't working, and he was visiting the park with his kid or kids, he was a totally different person. It was the only time I ever seen him smile.

Peggy Bertsch was an amazing boss. Friendly, funny, fair. I loved working with her.

Kinzel was always a pleasure running into when he did his rounds. You could tell he really loved the park.

I don't know if I ever had any interaction with Falfas. I can't even remember if I worked there when he did.

I really miss the old Cedar Point. I still feel the nostalgia when I visit, but it's just not the same park anymore. It's better in some ways, but worse in others.

My only interactions with Bill Spehn were at Geauga Lake and as a guest he was always very pleasant. He loved that park and put his heart into it despite the outcome.

Kinzel was usually nice (I have a story) to people who didn't work for him, but he was a horrible micromanager with very little trust for anyone.

Spehn was a bit rough to people from what I had heard, but his intent seemed right. I used to run into him frequently at Geauga Lake when I worked in Solon and went for lunch. He was oddly direct, but it would usually go like, "Hey Jeff, some with me," and it would be a minute before he explained what he wanted to show me. It was always something positive, some improvement they made. He really loved that place, and he got a raw deal for what became an unworkable proposition.