Cedar Fair in talks on $4.1 billion takeover

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Jeff said:

No one cares about your financial situation.

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Then don't make comments pretending you know about mine, which is what you did. It's pretty simple. Don't fire a gun and then complain about the noise it makes.

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I also would rather help people learn to fish than give them a fish.

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Something I said a few posts back. I'll agree with you there.

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As for the whole off-shoring argument, the only reason that it gets any press is because in the last decade, it finally started to affect white collar IT workers. It has already gone that way in every other industry, and as a percentage across all skills, it hasn't changed much. That's globalization. Get used to it. We can't play in the big sandbox by ourselves. Silicon Valley is the new Detroit. I just hope that they don't start churning out crap, stop innovating, and go the way of Detroit, then blame some nebulous force for "unfair" trade.

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Off-shoring has a lot more to do with white collar IT jobs moving overseas, it's just that the movement of those jobs suddenly woke up a lot of sleeping idiots that didn't see a problem beforehand.

Just because globalization happens doesn't mean it's right. Unlike you, I'm not one to sit around and automatically assume that everything that takes place is a good thing- not all change is positive, nor is all change for the right reasons. A few guys on your team with work visas are hardly comparable to thousands of American workers that get put out of a job when American retails push for prices so low that it's impossible to manufacture outside of China. I know- it's all in the name of profit. But just because it's in the name of profit doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Blue-collar factory workers once comprised a huge portion of this country's population, meaning that they bought the goods that they manufactured. Now that those people are out of work, that balance is disrupted. Sure there are programming jobs available, but those people aren't programmers, they're blue-collar factory workers. Just because the ramifications of that don't resonate with you doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

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No one I know is working in the field they studied, save for a few teachers. The major matters less than just going to school and having that experience.

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I find that hard to believe, but whatever. Because you and Walt apparantly know no one that is currently putting their degree to work the way they expected automatically means that no one in this country is actually doing that? Talk about existing in a microcosm.

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The fantasy is that you can't get ahead without a college education. I have a degree in meteorology from a Big Ten university. In the eleven years since I graduated, how many days have I earned an income as a meteorologist? Zero. I got my current job based on my experience from and performance during my first job. And I got my first job because I learned enough about HTML and computers in my free time to earn the entry-level opportunity. College was a great experience, but it has little to do with where I am in my career. There are many people with similar stories, including here at CB. I'm in no way an exception.

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Walt's experience is not to be denied. It might certainly be the case that, even if he had never gone to Penn State, he'd have exactly the same career he has now, and be four years further along in it to boot.

However, the numbers do not lie. On average, a college education more than pays for itself in a modest handful of years. So, if you are a betting man, and want to bet your son or daughter's future, put your money on getting them a college degree.

It's not necessarily the skills one learns, but rather then environment, the competition with colleagues who are at least your equal, and the notion that advancement and enrichment happens largely away from the classroom and formal instruction.

I will grant you that I have a strong personal bias on this subject, seeing as how kids getting such educations are a large part of putting bread on my table. But, if I've learned only one thing on this job, it is this: I have little or nothing to do with the success of my students. I am convinced that the way to create a great university is to grab the smartest kids you can find, lock them in a building together for four years, slide pizza under the door daily, and stay out of their way. Good things will happen.

*** Edited 7/31/2007 2:53:24 PM UTC by Brian Noble***

I'll agree with that- the college environment is the most valuable asset to college education. I'll also agree that there are cases when students end up doing something completely separate from their major. What I'm saying- and I'm not quite sure of why this is so difficult to agree with- is people go to college with the intent on studying what they want to do in life. That's not to say things don't change, but I don't believe someone studies biology if they're not fairly certain they want to get into the field of biology, and I don't believe that no one in America is doing what they set out to do when they started attending college.

*** Edited 7/31/2007 2:57:18 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***

Rob, I'm guessing that less than 1/3 of the students here at Michigan have a well-formed plan about what they want to do with their lives. The fraction in the "specialty schools" (Engineering, Art&Architecture, Music, Nursing, Education, etc.) is probably much closer to 2/3, but the bulk of our students, in LSA, probably have between no idea whatsoever and perhaps the vaguest of possible plans.

Probably true, but I think that most students with a vague idea of where they want to go will study something that could be useful later on. The rest major in Liberal Arts, right? ;)

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Rob Ascough said:
thousands of American workers that get put out of a job when American retails push for prices so low that it's impossible to manufacture outside of China.

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How does that happen, and yet the unemployment rate does not respond accordingly? I'm no economist, but data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics doesn't seem to reflect the rush of companies who desire to fire hard-working Americans. How can unemployment be low, and how does the economy overall continue to grow, despite this flood of jobs oversees? Is it that looking at one side of outsourcing is, in fact, only looking at one side of outsourcing?

When people hear about layoffs, they "feel" bad. No one wants to see an honest worker lose their job. And when someone finds out that a company has shipped jobs oversees, the first thing they think is that some bad guy in a big corner office is just lining his pockets at the expense of those who just want to work for a living. In the real world, it's often that company who will use the outsourced labor as a catalyst to grow and expand, and then - surprise - create more American jobs.

Economist and researcher Matthew Slaughter, who wrote a book on the subject, said that multinational companies have actually created two American jobs for every one that they've sent overseas to a cheap labor market.

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Just because the ramifications of that don't resonate with you doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

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In other words, "you may not understand my point, but I'm still right."

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Because you and Walt apparantly know no one that is currently putting their degree to work the way they expected automatically means that no one in this country is actually doing that? Talk about existing in a microcosm.

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Where have you gone beyond anecdotal arguments and sound bites?

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Economists say Kerry can't stop outsourcing
"Saxonhouse suggested that Democratic politicians are willfully exaggerating the issue of job outsourcing for electoral gain."

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I'm SHOCKED!

Economic evolution is unavoidable. Digging one's heels into the ground and trying to stay in the 1950's helps no one.

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Brian Noble said:
It might certainly be the case that, even if he had never gone to Penn State, he'd have exactly the same career he has now, and be four years further along in it to boot.

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I don't think I would be, though. What I gained in college, beyond the degree or skill training, has helped shape who I am ... for exactly the reason you state here:

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It's not necessarily the skills one learns, but rather then environment, the competition with colleagues who are at least your equal, and the notion that advancement and enrichment happens largely away from the classroom and formal instruction.

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I could not have said it better.

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Rob Ascough said:
I don't believe that no one in America is doing what they set out to do when they started attending college.

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I don't recall saying "no one," but, rather, that Jeff and I are not merely exceptions to the rule.

*** Edited 7/31/2007 4:11:43 PM UTC by Gemini***

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Rob Ascough said:
Just because globalization happens doesn't mean it's right. Unlike you, I'm not one to sit around and automatically assume that everything that takes place is a good thing...

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Ignoring for a moment Walt's post which pretty clearly shows that outsourcing as a problem is a myth, I don't think globalization is good because I'm sitting around, I think it's good because it's an inevitable reality and we need to play in that world. We have this problem with environmental issues, trade, and most recently, war. We do whatever the hell we want and then can't understand why everyone is pissed off at us. Worse, people have the nerve to say we, the richest country in the world, are being slighted. Ha!

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Gemini said:

And when someone finds out that a company has shipped jobs oversees, the first thing they think is that some bad guy in a big corner office is just lining his pockets at the expense of those who just want to work for a living. In the real world, it's often that company who will use the outsourced labor as a catalyst to grow and expand, and then - surprise - create more American jobs.

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I'm going to make a correction to what I've been saying, as I've probably been a little off-base with part of my argument. It's obvious there are jobs being created in this country as others are shipped overseas- after all, trade being a two-way street can't be ignored. That's where I'm wrong.

But let's look at the two examples of jobs that have come up in previous parts of this conversation- factory workers and computer programmers. Companies like Honda and Toyota have built manufacturing plants in this country, meaning most of there products are no longer imported but instead are built on American soil by American workers. But those are clearly exceptions to the rule. Pretty much every large American company has shifted manufacturing to overseas locations to some degree, and the rate at which new manufacturing jobs are being created doesn't match the rate at which they are leaving the country. I've heard for many years that computer programmers and software engineers are in high demand and that sure is a nice thing, but it means that while demand for people with certain skills is increased, demand for people with other skills is decreased. Going back to what we were talking about, those people that are suddenly without jobs should do something to better their own situations, but that's not something that happens overnight, or even over years. Claiming that it's "unfair, but that's the way it goes" doesn't solve the problem.

I don't need to read books and other kinds of reports that prove or disprove what I'm saying. I see it with my own eyes because of what I do for a living. I know where materials of many different kinds and with many different applications are being shipped to and from. I witnessed firsthand a change in the direction of importing and exporting traffic. Is my approach scientific? Not at all. But doing what I do and getting a nice overview of a large situation, I am able to see what's happening- some of it agrees with reports, some of it doesn't. And no knock against either of you (Jeff and Walt) but I think the view from my window is a little better than the views from the windows of people involved with writing computer code and whatnot.

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In other words, "you may not understand my point, but I'm still right."

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Ummm... no.

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Where have you gone beyond anecdotal arguments and sound bites?

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By actually providing you with firsthand reports of all this stuff happening. It's not like I'm concocting any of this sh*t in my head.

And you're right Jeff, there are many issues plaguing this country- all of the things you mentioned and about a million more. I'm not blind or stupid, nor am I some flag-waving, stuck-in-the-past nitwit that thinks the Earth begins with the Atlantic and ends with the Pacific. I'm in support of globalization, but the modern-day approach to it is far from perfect. I'm in support of open trade with nations both established and developing but I'm not in favor of open trade for the sake of trying to prove to others that we realize we're not the only people on this planet. If trade makes sense, that's good. If it doesn't, that's bad. Not too difficult a concept, as far as I'm concerned.

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Rob Ascough said:

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Where have you gone beyond anecdotal arguments and sound bites?

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By actually providing you with firsthand reports of all this stuff happening.

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That's what I said - anecdotal, an informal account based on your experience. When I relayed my informal account based on my experience, I was told I existed in a microcosm. But I also expanded on my views with opinions and research from economists as well as government statistics.

The microcosm comment was in reference to you claiming that no one employs the specific knowledge they pick up at college... that everyone in the country is seemingly working outside their major. Don't try to turn this around.

You're giving an account based upon you witness, I'm giving an account based on what I witness. I don't see how either one of us is wrong. I'm sure I could pull up documentation that supports what I'm saying just as you did, but despite my long-winded posts in this topic, I'm really not deep enough into it to go through the trouble of doing that. To think that I'm going to Gonch in the SFA thread for a level-headed conversation!

I'm not turning anything around. I was merely relaying my experience, as did you.

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Rob Ascough said:
I find it hard to believe that you can be so wrong with such authority.

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Rob Ascough said:
I don't see how either one of us is wrong.

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At least I'm gaining ground. :)

*** Edited 7/31/2007 6:14:56 PM UTC by Gemini***

Walt isn't giving witness to anything... he's looking at hard data that demonstrates a macro view, not the things you've seen (that's the anecdotal part, which doesn't prove anything the way research and data does).

That's a ridiculous claim. Research is to be believed but not firsthand experience? If you see a old lady get mugged but you read a report that claims muggings no longer take place, you're actually going to believe the report? The macro view doesn't necessarily explain a lot of micro views... and besides, I tend to think the range of the things I've seen conflict with anything that claims the opposite.

But believe what you want... no skin off my back.

If you see an old lady get mugged, will you argue against data that says crime overall is down?

Possibly. It depends... not all data is correct. I believe my own eyes more than what I read. I'm confident in the fact I'm not going blind.

So now the department of labor and university researchers just make things up?

That's not logical. What you see is statistically irrelevant. Statistics are worthless without an adequate sample size. If two people I meet say CoasterBuzz sucks, does that mean everyone thinks it sucks and I should just shut it down? The Google Analytics reports are certainly telling me something different. Something statistically relevant.

Where did I say that? I said that reports are sometimes incorrect, or fail to take certain things into consideration. Do you believe every single thing you read?

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If two people I meet say CoasterBuzz sucks, does that mean everyone thinks it sucks and I should just shut it down?

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Yup. Kinda like how two people did something totally different from what they majored in, so everyone that went to college never did anything with their majors.

*** Edited 7/31/2007 6:32:12 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***

Speaking of, where did I say that, how does "there are many people with similar stories" get translated as, "everyone that went to college never did anything with their majors?"