B&M. How do you see the future for this coaster company? Has SF finally made them wake up?

I think the future for them will mostly be outside of North America, with an occasional coaster popping up here or there like the possible coaster at BGE (that would be Busch Gardens Europe in Williamsburg).

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Charles Nungester said:

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DorneyDante said:

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Chitown said:
With Shapiro stating that big 20 plus million dollar coasters are pretty much done with in the SF chain, do you think B&M is now making preparations to deal with this loss of business?

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How many $20+million coasters does six flags have? If your answer is "not many," then you've hit the nail on the head. How is this affecting B+M? Better yet, does Shapiro's statement even have much relevance?

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I think it's a little more than not many.

Nitro, Raging Bull, Three medusas and a scream, Tatsu, Goliath SFMM, SFOT, Kingda Ka, Batwing and X flight and Dominator (Latter two now to CF) El Torro (Im betting it's close and that makes two in two years for that park. Chang, Riddlers Revenge, Superman (Mexico), X.

Im sure Im missing a few. Some of these didn't cost 20 mill at the time built but would now if designed and built.

I can even see SF buying a 20 mill coaster every 5-7 years for it's bigger parks but putting them in at a every year or every other year pace is not gonna happen now.

Chuck, who says at some point you gotta let the rides pay for themselves before going further in the hole.

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Chuck, the posters title refers to B&M. I had no idea Kinga Ka was considered a B+M. hhmm interesting. and to say what they would cost now has no relevance. You might wanna check rcdb for some of the ride costs that you mentioned because when I checked many of those you named weren't 20 million. So yes I still consider the factor as "not many." I think we know waht rides he's referring to here when he says the rides hitting the near 20mill mark.

B&M will do fine in the long run. SF is not the only company that runs amusement parks in this world. They were however B&M's best customers with an average of 2-3 B&M coasters every year. B&M will survive with additions in parks like CF and Busch Gardens/Sea World. They will also be making coasters for parks in europe and asia.

What you may see is the price of a B&M coaster drop due to the less demand that will be there now that SF is not ordering massive amounts of coasters from them.

I do also believe that the major coasters that SF does add to their properties that they keep after this whole realingment is done will mostly be by B&M. They are very reliable and great coasters. I just think that it will be around one or two coasters a year across the SF chain, meaning that each park will recieve a new coaster about every 5-10 years.

Dante, you DID specifically ask

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How many $20+million coasters does six flags have?

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and not "How many $20+million B&M's does Six Flags have?".

So Kingda Ka is a perfectly valid entry in the list. In addition, I think it's perfectly acceptable to try to factor inflation into the equation for sake of comparison. If installing a ride that would have cost $10 million 10 years ago would cost $20 million now (exaggerated factors for posting purposes), then that's still a $20 million ride *for sake of new development*, which is the topic at-hand.

Gregleg, refer to title of post. The original poster said:

"With Shapiro stating that big 20 plus million dollar coasters are pretty much done with in the SF chain, do you think B&M is now making preparations to deal with this loss of business?"

Do I really need to reiterate the fact that we are discussing Bolliger & Mabillard here when this threads title already says that? hhmm I don't think so but if you want me to say it again I will. Its not my fault people got off topic.

Question: "How many $20+million B&M's does Six Flags have?"

Dante's answer: "not many"

Inflation?....hmm eh ok whatever

P18: Vekoma according to this: http://www.rcdb.com/id487.htm

Construction costs have also shot up the past few years around the country. Look at new home construction prices even.

The thing is, who can build steel coasters cheap? SLC's like T2 cost $8 million in 1995! For the time, that was about the same price as a similar B&M.

Before 1999, what percentage of B&M coasters were over 150'? From 1999 until now, what percentage of B&M's are over 150'? About 1999 was when SF really started pumping the money into B&Ms. However, B&M did just fine before that and they'll still do fine.

Well one thing I can about 'present' day B&M. They continue to deliver high quality, reliable rides that other companies only seem to *luck* into. And the "class of 2006" group look to be the most impressive group of steel coasters of the past decade, and I would include Sheikra in that group.

Thank you Greg, Thats all I was pointing out. Even if B:TR was 9 million 12 years ago. It's rapidly aproaching the 20 mill mark. Many others including the Intamin included.

I don't care if your the highest attended seasonal park, You can't put in back to back 20 million dollar projects and come out smelling like a rose. I don't see Busch doing it, I don't see Paramount doing it and CP has done it and learned a lesson from it that SF never seemed to *GET*! Even if SF was saving money by re-using a existing design, It's still a huge investment with minimal return in the short term.

Expanding a parks base of visitors is the key to growth, CP while still mainly marketing to teens has made it a resort environment where *THE GATE* is the minimal part of the income generated from a customer or more likely in the resort case, *CUSTOMERS* PKI and HW have expanded into attractions that draw from many age groups, also expanding the *BASE*

Sure, build the 20 million dollar ride and attract 7-15% first year increase in attendance, Mainly from a bunch of kids with no money to spend while at the park.

While the juries still out on the new SF managment, Several of the key faults the previous managments, Seem to be being taken head on and aggressivly being changed to make them competitive and profitable while still bringing things new to the table.

Chuck, who realizes Dante has differing views and is not arguing. Just seen the clear how many 20+ million dollar coasters does SF have? Not many! and had to dissagree. The've been spending the equivelent of 20 million for some time. Operating like our govt per sey and spending more than they are making.

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DorneyDante said:

Its not my fault people got off topic.

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Threads get off topic on occasion. Its only natural after a few posts for conversations to take different directions, but if it really gets out of hand that's what we have moderators for.

Chuck has some pretty clear, thoughtful ideas here that can only benefit the board, I always enjoy hearing him out. *** Edited 4/25/2006 7:32:25 PM UTC by matt.***

"Sure, build the 20 million dollar ride and attract 7-15% first year increase in attendance, Mainly from a bunch of kids with no money to spend while at the park".

You know I'd slightly disagree with you here. Teenagers are the biggest impulse buyers in the market. Just this past weekend, Goliath t-shirts and memorabilia was absolutely flying off the shelves at SFOG.

The problem has been (for SF at least) is a lousy, stale marketing strategy. And no one is going to spend money in the parks if the merchindise is lousy. You can't just *give up* and say "oh well, teens don't spend money". You've got to figure out how to market to them affectively.

I do agree whole-heartedly with your other points though. And I think this is what Shapiro is ultimatetly saying. His parks simply can't afford to add 20 million dollar investments anymore, even every other year. *** Edited 4/25/2006 7:37:16 PM UTC by DWeaver***

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Charles Nungester said:

Chuck, who realizes Dante has differing views and is not arguing. Just seen the clear how many 20+ million dollar coasters does SF have? Not many! and had to dissagree.

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I always did like you chuckster ;)