Because people in Arlington aren't pathetic enough...

A perfect song, I might add...

The song is In the flesh from The Wall http://youtube.com/watch?v=DS2erz9Ym5Y

I must have heard the song a thousand times before I ever seen the movie. The Movie put the song in perspective. although the movie itself is a mess of confusion :)

Chuck

Before this discussion goes way overboard on "values," let me say I get just as nervous hearing people say that values are a personal issue, and there is no such thing as an absolute.

If that's the case, then you have no right to condemn someone who'd injure or kill a person to take their iPod or cell phone (latest reported crime wave in Philly). Because for that person, possession of that gizmo is more "valuable" than another person's welfare or even their life. There would be no such thing as a crime, just people following their personal values systems.

I do think schools have a role to play in teaching children values-- be honest, don't cheat or lie, treat others fairly and politely, don't hit or fight, etc. Whether or not SFOT sells beer is NOT a values based issue, nor should it be made one by school children, their teacher, or their schoolboard.

It's improper and misleading to say that alcohol is inherently evil, and that anyone who drinks (or sells) so much of a drop is harmful, dangerous, or evil themselves. So they're telling 9 year olds never, ever to drink beer-- are they also teaching them never, ever to steal or cheat?

For those of you who are questioning by information about value systems being genetic here's your proof:

"Surprisingly, a significant part of your values is determined by genetics. Studies on identical twins are a good proof of this idea. Identical twins who are separated at birth end up having values similar to their siblings, even if they grew up in totally different environments. Because a large portion of your values is determined by genetic factors, values tend to be fairly stable over time. Your basic notion of what is right and what is wrong probably will not change much over your lifetime."

^That quote comes from Page 34, Chapter 2 in the book Human Behavior in Organizations by Rodney C Vandeveer and Michael L. Menefee which is used in my Human Behavior in Organizations class that I am currently attend right now at the prestigious Purdue University. :)

We all learn something new everyday right? *** Edited 1/18/2008 12:40:27 AM UTC by rct247***

rct247 good work college boy.. believe everything you read in a book? wink

If you want your kids to be taught morals.. send them to private school and god forbid keep them away from the hell spawn of SFOT.

No, I don't believe everything I read in books. In fact, I honestly hate reading, but its better than wasting my life watching MTV and playing World of Warcraft 15 hours a day.

Oh and Purdue isn't a private school. It's a public land grant institution.

But seriously, I am not here to argue about me. I hate feeling that everyone on the forums here thinks I am not credible and that I'm a very conservative psycho just because I have a different view point. Just wanted to let people know that even if kids are taught right from wrong, the majority of that comes from what was passed on from mom and dad anyways. *** Edited 1/18/2008 3:34:05 AM UTC by rct247***

I was kind of talking about the teacher at the school, not you.

Kids are not taught right and wrong from parents who know no different. You think a teacher has the right to push a religon on your kid or be able to spank your kid? No child left behind has hand cuffed teachers and now there all about SOL's. Now there wasting time on a personal issue.

So if the 3rd graders wrote 20 variations of the following letter... Dear Six Flags, I think it is awesome that you are thinking about selling beer at your park. My Mom and Dad drink beer and if you sell it then they might bring me to the park more often. Thanks! Love, Susie... would we be having this same discussion?

I ask honestly because the focus here seems to be on the position the students took on the issue. And it seems that position leads the majority to believe the students were manipulated both by their recent drug/alcohol lesson and by the teacher.

Unless we are calling the journalist a liar, this issue was brought to the class by one of the students themselves.

"When you're mad about something, do you just gripe to your friends?" Ratliff asked the students Friday morning. "No. You inform yourself, and you make your voice heard."

If there is anything wrong with this scenario it is that the teacher didn't help the kids "inform themselves" as much as she could have. But the kids chose to advocate the way most advocates do. They focused on their cohort's (3rd graders) best interest (not getting puked on) and used their knowledge and frame of reference (the most recent lesson they had on drug/alcohol) to form their voice.

I don't think that the limited scope of their 3rd grade knowledge on the topic should out shine the positive that comes from being taught at a young age that it is important not to be apathetic about their world.

I'm not going to pretend that it's a bad thing for children to be aware of the world around them, regardless of their age... nor am I going to suggest that it's wrong for them to make a stand and take action. Supposing that a student brought this issue to the teacher (and it wasn't the teacher that pushed for her students to write letters), something's still very wrong about all of this. It goes back to what RGB said about alcohol and its consumers and distributors not being evil. If anything, the teacher should have taught her students why that is not the case. I'm not saying she should endorse alcohol consumption but I think it would have been a lot more productive to tell the kids about the dangers of alcohol and how it can be consumed in a responsible manner rather than letting them believe that alcohol is wrong. In this case, I feel that what she didn't sau could be as bad as what she might have said.

But in some religious belief systems ANY alcohol consumption is considered immoral.

CIVICS is subject matter that is appropriate for the schools, leave the morality lessons for the home (and/or place of worship). It IS a fairly sad commentary that so many children never get either of those in either place....but that doesn't mean the schools should take up that fight any more than the Executive branch has the right to declare war...

Oh, wait, wrong civics lesson... ;)

*** Edited 1/18/2008 3:22:06 PM UTC by rollergator***

I've told you guys before - Carrie is a smart one. :)

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Carrie M. said:
I don't think that the limited scope of their 3rd grade knowledge on the topic should out shine the positive that comes from being taught at a young age that it is important not to be apathetic about their world.

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Agreed, and you made the point much better than I did back a few posts when I attempted. The teacher was trying to do something that can be really helpful and worthwhile for students - she was just doing it within a value system with which many of us don't agree so she gets scapegoated individually here which is ludicrous. It's not just this teacher, or school, or school district, or even educational system that teaches kids that if you drink alcohol you'll either puke or die, it's completely, across the board cultural. She should be commended for engaging her students and using their own ideas (even if they are off-base), to expect her to use this as an opportunity to teach her 3rd grade students that alcohol can be consumed in a responsible matter when everything in our schools has been indoctrinated with just the opposite is a bit far-fetched.

You can't just sit in a vacuum and pretend that the kids aren't being manipulated. As Bill said, there's a difference between civics and morality. Kids that young can understand recycling and feeding the homeless and expanding library hours. Kids don't know anything about alcohol except what their parents (or teachers) tell them.

You're right, Carrie, that it's important that they be aware and involved in their world, but not without the lesson that you can't just take every pile of crap shoveled your way and take it as the gospel.

Ah, but feeding the homeless just encourages homelessness.

;)

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Kids that young can understand recycling and feeding the homeless and expanding library hours.

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More along the vein of Brian's winky than actual retort, but - those are three things a parent may not want to instill in their kids.

And what if the parents are totally ok with their kids being against beer sales at SFoT?

I'm with Carrie on this one and I've sat out because no one really came up with a solid idea until her post.

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Carrie:
So if the 3rd graders wrote 20 variations of the following letter... Dear Six Flags, I think it is awesome that you are thinking about selling beer at your park. My Mom and Dad drink beer and if you sell it then they might bring me to the park more often. Thanks! Love, Susie... would we be having this same discussion?

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Exactly. :)

How pathetic.

"I think that if your park sells alcohol it wouldn't be a family friendly park anymore. But I'm just a 3rd grader with 21 friends writing a letter to you. I mean I don't want to get on the Titan or the Giant and someone to upchuck on me."

Well, I guess that makes disney, sea world, cedarfair and a lot of other six flags parks "non family friendly parks" as well.

^how many 3rd graders can even ride Titan?

You're such a Republican, Gonch. :)

What parents would encourage their kids to write a pro-alcohol sales campaign? No parent wants their kids promoting alcohol sales. At the same time, it doesn't mean they should use their kid to advance their own adult agenda. That's lame.

I'd compare it to telling your children they're going to hell if they don't believe in God, but I need not open that can of worms. ;)

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crazy horse said:

Well, I guess that makes disney, sea world, cedarfair and a lot of other six flags parks "non family friendly parks" as well.

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Questioning the logic of a 3rd grader? That's pretty funny.

Did I miss something did the teacher ever say that alcohol was evil and that nobody should ever drink alcohol? I read the article twice and didn't see that anywhere.

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Jeff said:
You're such a Republican, Gonch. :)

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Hey, I have the Al Gore movie playing in the background at this very moment. Haven't been paying attention, but it's on. That counts, right?

(He really is just friggin' mind numbing, isn't he? ;) )