Australian theme parks ban outside food, guests protest

Ensign Smith said:
Thank goodness greed has been proven not to exist. I'll have to pass that information on to my good friend Bernie... Oops, I'll have to wait for him to call me. They don't take calls where he is. Aw well.

I don't think anyone said people couldn't be greedy by definition, but rather that a business couldn't be.

Using the textbook definition of greed, of course.

However, I personally find the idea of greed as a concept quite flawed and a little humorous to begin with. (especially in terms of wealth or monetary measure)

^ - what makes that a poor definition (although I realize it is the most widely accepted) is "selfish and excessive". What I find "selfish and excessive" you may deem to be wholly necessary to your survival.

Sure, to us on the outside Bernie was "selfish and excessive" but he needed to keep fleecing people to keep paying those who wanted out. He wasn't being greedy, he was trying to survive.*

* - I should note that just because he was trying to survive, and I'm using that to debunk his "greediness" doesn't make what he did right. He should still rot in prison.

Jeff said:

Perhaps, but if these things occur and are considered objectionable, presumably the market responds by not buying that company's product.

Actually, the market responds by running to Congress and asking them to pass laws prohibiting or controlling such behavior. Perhaps that's the lesson-- if you (as a person or a business) can't control your urges, the government will be glad to do it for you.

I think that's an over generalization.

I don't care for the term "greed" when it comes to businesses for just the reasons mentioned...but there is a strong tendency for many entities to get caught up in "very short-term accounting" whereby only the profits from the NEXT quarter come into the equation. Longer-range thinking involves consideration of your customer base as something more than a one-time victim of your business philosophy.

Juggalotus said:
What I find "selfish and excessive" you may deem to be wholly necessary to your survival.

And that's exactly why the idea of greed is laughable...especially when talking about a business.

I'm with you, Bill, and it's precisely the problem I have with public companies, and investors who can't see out more than three months.

Bernie's problem isn't about greed. It's about fraud. There is a difference.

Fraud is illegal.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

So a ceo or president (or whatever) who runs a business can't be considered greedy? He is shielded from that description because he's only trying to make as much as a profit as possible? Isn't "trying to make as much profit as possible" called greed? iIt's paradoxical.

Trying to profit as much as possible sounds a lot like Dictionary.com's definition of greed, which is, "excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions."

I think if a business (the people running the business) isn't greedy, then the business isn't being run right in the first place. How much money and power is too much?

Companies have to make money for their owners and investors. There's nothing complicated about that. A public company in particular feels that pressure, because you don't put money into something without the expectation of getting something, and more, back. It has nothing to do with greed.

I want to make as much money as possible too, so I don't have to even think about money for food, housing, college, vacations... anything. Am I greedy? Am I greedy because I want CoasterBuzz to be my primary source of income? God knows I've been accused of that plenty of times.

LostKause said:
How much money and power is too much?

The only way one can define greed is to define that very question...and that question doesn't have an answer.

Presumably if you believe in the concept of greed then one can be greedy for things other than money or power. How much of anything is too much?

Jeff said:
I want to make as much money as possible too, so I don't have to even think about money for food, housing, college, vacations... anything. Am I greedy?

Exactly.

Jeff said:

Am I greedy because I want CoasterBuzz to be my primary source of income?

:::quickly renews at $25 dollar rate for next 5 years:::

:)

If one wanted to make enough money that he didn't have to worry about paying the bills, food, and entertainment, and living a comfortable life, than no, it's not greed. I wish you all the success in the world, Jeff.

But if one was already living a comfortable existence (kind of like me right now in this point of my life), and still wanted much more than you needed, and it kept him up at night worrying about how he was going to get moremoremore, than yes, that is greed.

People, especially high-paid CEOs, or whatever, should be very grateful for what they have, and give thanks to all the little people who made all that money for them. I never see that. When I worked for Target all those years (which was an unfortuniate mistake), the biggest lesson that I learned was that no matter how much I care about the success of my employer, they will not care at all about my success. Meanwhile, the big wigs would fly in in their privat chopper to inspect the store, and it was humilating how the employees were treated.

I have no problem with profit. It's when a business starts screwing their customers and employees (which, if you think about it, is everyone else besides themselves) that I have a problem with it.

I already know that you don't think that it's wrong for CEOs and company presidents to vote themselves multi-million dollar bonuses. Who needs that kind of money, each year, as a bonus? Wouldn't that money be better spent strengthening the company or shared with the other employees (GASP!)?

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I wouldn't stress over winning it again next year.

"Please God. Just let me win a gagillion dollars again next year too, so I can buy another yacht, a few more mansions, and a garage full of cars. I need more God. More, I say!"

LostKause said:But if one was already living a comfortable existence (kind of like me right now in this point of my life), and still wanted much more than you needed, and it kept him up at night worrying about how he was going to get moremoremore, than yes, that is greed.

Everybody is a stereotypical cartoonish characture in your world, arent' they? ;)

Again, you seem to fail to get the concept of shades of grey. Your comfotable existence isn't the same as mine and mine is different than Jeff's and Jeff's is different than...well you get the idea.

And then the amount (of any resource) to maintain that existence will vary too.

I don't think busting your ass, working hard and giving yourself to something because you want the security of a seven figure income is greed.

And I certainly don't think there's a responsibility to give any of that which one worked (and works) so hard for to someone (that for whatever reason) is working a minimum wage job stocking shelves.

Doesn't that just make the shelf stocker greedy? Wanting more for his job than he (or the skills needed) are worth? That, to me, is as close to greed as one can get - wanting something for nothing.

Jeff said:
I think that's an over generalization.

And everything you say is the gospel truth.

Dude, what the hell? Why are you taking it personally and being nasty?

LostKause said:
If one wanted to make enough money that he didn't have to worry about paying the bills, food, and entertainment, and living a comfortable life, than no, it's not greed.

As Gonch said, grayscale. As someone who has made incremental leaps in income every few years since graduating from college, I can tell you from experience that it's never enough. The more you make, the more potential you see. First it's paying off debt, then it's saving for retirement, then it's saving for a kid's college, then it's paying for cars in cash, then it's paying for a house in cash... it never ends. There's always a next level. Comfort doesn't even come in to play.

Point taken...since I have never made 10 million dollars a year, I guess I can't wrap my little person mind around a good reason why Mr. 10-million-dollars-a-year wants more than he already has. I'm very happy with what I've got, and it's not much. I'm not normal, as we have already established over the years.

I really appreciate everything that I have learned from the posters here on CoasterBuzz over the years. Even though I still disagree with some of it, it's nice to know how some people view the way the world works.

Jeff said:
Dude, what the hell? Why are you taking it personally and being nasty?

As Gonch said, grayscale. As someone who has made incremental leaps in income every few years since graduating from college, I can tell you from experience that it's never enough. The more you make, the more potential you see. First it's paying off debt, then it's saving for retirement, then it's saving for a kid's college, then it's paying for cars in cash, then it's paying for a house in cash... it never ends. There's always a next level. Comfort doesn't even come in to play.

Sorry about that. No offense intended.

For your second statement, I don't think anything mentioned there constitutes "greed." Just wanting more of anything isn't greedy. It's when that desire to acquire becomes excessive or begins to affect others negatively that it becomes greed.

A basic example is the 4-year old in the sandbox who wants all the toys, even the ones the other kids have. This kid will do whatever it takes to obtain all the toys, not caring that they're not all his or that he'll hurt someone else to get what he wants. He doesn't even care that he can't play with the toys once he has them, or won't have anyone to play with-- he can't stand the idea of someone else having something he wants, or having anything at all. Greed is begrudging someone else something they've earned.

I also think that businesses can take variants of this behavior and indeed be greedy. Sure, the purpose of a company is to make profit. But I think we can all-- or most of us can-- agree that there are limits to what a company should be allowed to do to make profit. Companies that dump toxic crap into streams or bury it underground because proper disposal would hurt the bottom line are greedy. Companies that run sweatshops are greedy. Companies that make unsafe products or make fraudulent claims to increase revenue are greedy. Greed on the part of companies (as well as individuals) helped send us into the current financial mess we're in today. So yes, I believe that a company can be greedy.

Okay, so what we have now is an etymological problem. (user checks a dictionary) My closest dictionary defines "greed" as "intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food."

Hmmm...Based on that definition, I am going to disagree with Gonchar and say that yes, a corporation can be greedy, but that is exactly why the corporation exists in the first place. That's what they do: they selfishly desire to increase their holdings. But notice also that there is no value judgement associated with that definition.

I'm also going to agree with RatherGoodBear that there are limits to the activities companies can indulge in. But that isn't about corporate greed; that's about community values, values which are enforced either through market means as Jeff described in an earlier message, or if the community feels strongly enough about it, codified into law.

Corporations are by nature and by necessity, greedy. They are not necesarily, however, amoral.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

RideMan said:
Okay, so what we have now is an etymological problem. (user checks a dictionary) My closest dictionary defines "greed" as "intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food."

Hmmm. That's an interesting definition because it eliminates the very value judgement that seems to be associated with the idea of greed. That definition doesn't make greed a bad thing at all. By that definition, I'm insanely greedy for the cookies in the cupboard and when everybody goes to sleep I'm going to act on my impulse.

By that definition, we've all been greedy for many things in life and without incident, importance in our actions or even conscious thought. If that's how we're going to define greed, then I change my stance 100% - everyone and everything in this world is greedy. We all have an intense and selfish desire for our own well being at the very least.

Greedy bastards! ;)

RatherGoodBear said:
Companies that dump toxic crap into streams or bury it underground because proper disposal would hurt the bottom line are greedy. Companies that run sweatshops are greedy. Companies that make unsafe products or make fraudulent claims to increase revenue are greedy. Greed on the part of companies (as well as individuals) helped send us into the current financial mess we're in today. So yes, I believe that a company can be greedy.

None of those things are greed. Those are sleazy things companies do in the name of profit, but there's nothing greedy about it. What exactly about a business trying to increase profit is greedy?

---

I guess what it comes down to is how one defines greed - whether you attach a moral judgement to it or a limit to it. Funny how a handful of people casually discussing something have so many views on what defines greed.

Perhaps we should agree on the parameters of what greed is before we discuss anything else. :)