Arrow......"The Ron Toomer Years"
Ron Toomer knows his coasters. At the 99 coastermania he commented on "that twisty thing out in front" referring to raptor, and that in the next few years, those types of rides were going to lose popularity. Low and behold, the man was right. Just look at what B&M has done in 2000 and 2001. Mr. Toomer basically said that nothing in coasters is going to be better than a good old fashioned "hill" and he is right, and i think that the trends in current coasters reflect that.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
B&M builds what they're asked to, not what they consider trendy. In 2001 they built or are building one hyper, a standard looper (only their second or third, if I recall correctly), a floorless, two inverters, a flier and probably some other rides I'm forgetting. 2000 saw three floorless coasters, the inverter that was on the cover of First Drop last year, etc. That's one hyper out of a lot of rides.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
The man is right though. What design has stood the test of type. The old fashioned out and back coaster. I am not saying looping coasters won't but the man has some sense of credibility. We all really don't know how some of the b+m coasters are going to age. I know I wouldn't enjoy a 7 looping coaster that is as rough as sob was when it first opened or flight of fear with the over the shoulder restraints
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What would you call it if cedar point
built a stand up hypercoaster with tunnels?
magnis
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What would you call it if cedar point
built a stand up hypercoaster with tunnels?
magnis
JORDON DUNHAM said:
"We all really don't know how some of the b+m coasters are going to age. I know I wouldn't enjoy a 7 looping coaster that is as rough as..."
Ageed. B&M's a relatively new, age-wise. I'd like to hear from some people (not only overzealous B&M supporters) on how they feel the older B&M coasters are holding up. I just had my first ride on Kumba this past February and I thought it was very rough. Certainly not as rough as some of those Arrow coasters have gotten over the years, but it was certainly a far cry from the smoothness on the new B&M's and there was definitely moderate headbanging. My second oldest B&M ride is Raptor which I feel is holding up very well...then again, inverted coasters are what B&M does best and what they should continue to focus on in the future.
I think Arrow innovated many great designs which were amazing milestones in their day. The company's today are perfecting those achievements and continuing to push forward with the innovations.
Every company/designer has their place in the big jigsaw puzzle that is coaster history; it just happens to be my opinion that Arrow makes up a very large piece of that puzzle.
Jeff said:
"B&M builds what they're asked to, not what they consider trendy. In 2001 they built or are building one hyper, a standard looper (only their second or third, if I recall correctly), a floorless, two inverters, a flier and probably some other rides I'm forgetting. 2000 saw three floorless coasters, the inverter that was on the cover of First Drop last year, etc. That's one hyper out of a lot of rides.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com"
Right, but I never said B&M built what they thought was trendy. Parks determine what is trendy, and like you said, designers build what the parks tell them to build. And also note that I didn't JUST mean B&M.
Toomer said that within the next few years, there is going to be a major boom in more "hill" oriented coasters, and from what I see, the man is right. With all the brilliant CCI's of the past few years, the still relatively new Intamin Hypers, the morgan hypers, and the occasional B&M hyper, I think its safe to say that the past few years have begun a trend towards more traditional type designs. I mean, look at the industry. The only company building mega looping steel coasters is B&M.
Toomer was just pointing out a trend that seems to be continuing, as far as I can tell.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
As for the older B&M's, I have ridden many of them, and I would say they are running just as well as when they first opened.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
That's fine... but you're back-tracking. You implied that B&M wasn't building Raptor-ish rides in 2000 and 2001, and what do you know, they only built one non-looper. Then you agree that the parks pick the rides, then change back again when you say that B&M is the only one building loopers, as if they had something to do with it.
If looping rides are passe, I'm interested to know why that Intamin 10-inversion coaster is being built (Europe, I think).
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
If looping rides are passe, I'm interested to know why that Intamin 10-inversion coaster is being built (Europe, I think).
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
Ok, B&M WAS building raptor-ish rides in 2000 and 2001, you got me on that one, but i'm a little biased against them anyways because I think everyone of them is utter crap. The point is that I should have been adressing the industry as a whole, instead of just naming B&M.
You are also right when you say that B&M has nothing to do with who builds what types of rides. I'll give you that one.
I never said looping coasters are passe, I just agree with toomer in that their role in the indsutry is going to be less dominating as it was back in the mid to late 90's.
That Intamin 10 inversion coaster is being built because the park determined that that would be the best investment for them to make profit wise. Like you have pointed out yourself many times, that is why parks do everything.
I really don't see how that ride proves your point though, becuase one single ride doesn't prove or disprove trends in the industry as a whole.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
You are also right when you say that B&M has nothing to do with who builds what types of rides. I'll give you that one.
I never said looping coasters are passe, I just agree with toomer in that their role in the indsutry is going to be less dominating as it was back in the mid to late 90's.
That Intamin 10 inversion coaster is being built because the park determined that that would be the best investment for them to make profit wise. Like you have pointed out yourself many times, that is why parks do everything.
I really don't see how that ride proves your point though, becuase one single ride doesn't prove or disprove trends in the industry as a whole.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
I'm saying that Toomer was wrong, therefore disagreeing with you. If you think the B&M rides are crap, hey, get out of my way, I want to ride again.
The looping "trend" started in the Seventies when Arrow built the first Corkscrew, and it hasn't subsided since. It's almost a sure thing that every major park has a looping Arrow (or perhaps Schwarzkopf).
Talk to the kids on the midway. They like the looping stuff, and that doesn't appear to be changing. There's a reason that Raptor has longer lines than Magnum, and it's not location.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
The looping "trend" started in the Seventies when Arrow built the first Corkscrew, and it hasn't subsided since. It's almost a sure thing that every major park has a looping Arrow (or perhaps Schwarzkopf).
Talk to the kids on the midway. They like the looping stuff, and that doesn't appear to be changing. There's a reason that Raptor has longer lines than Magnum, and it's not location.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
Bottom line:
I think that new looping coasters, or at least looping coasters as we know them aren't going to play as signifacnt roles in the next 5 years as they have in the mid to late 90's, and i think that with the 2000 and 2001 rides, its already starting to show. *shrug* but whatever. All i know is I'm going to be at CP this satruday and I couldn't be happier about it. Once I'm at the top of maggie's lift hill none of this will matter, not that this discussion is exactly pertinent to anything at the moment anyways.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
I think that new looping coasters, or at least looping coasters as we know them aren't going to play as signifacnt roles in the next 5 years as they have in the mid to late 90's, and i think that with the 2000 and 2001 rides, its already starting to show. *shrug* but whatever. All i know is I'm going to be at CP this satruday and I couldn't be happier about it. Once I'm at the top of maggie's lift hill none of this will matter, not that this discussion is exactly pertinent to anything at the moment anyways.
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The day that I spend more time analyzing the rides than screaming my head off like a moron is the day that I hope someone will kick my in the love sausage and tell me not to be a moron. - Jeff
Jeff said:
"It's almost a sure thing that every major park has a looping Arrow (or perhaps Schwarzkopf)."
Or "had" one... or one of both... *cough*Kennywood*cough*
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Matt Lynch, throwing the monkey into the wrench...
Co-Webmaster, Kennywood Boulevard
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com
LOL!!!!! :)
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Thanks for riding Tidal Wave and enjoy your day here at Mariott's Great America!!
www.angelfire.com/oh4/tk173
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Thanks for riding Tidal Wave and enjoy your day here at Mariott's Great America!!
www.angelfire.com/oh4/tk173
I think the man was a genius and some of his rides were faulty because of poor engineering. I feel that even the most elegant creations by modern designers such as Wally Stengal can't stack up to his fun layouts. I am pitiful and have not ridden that many coasters, but have somehow managed to ride most of his creations. Drachen Fire is, or was by far my favorite designed steel looping coaster. The only problem with Drachen Fire and Steel Phantom is his bigger, taller, faster designs were accompanied by the outdated technology. :(
Ron Toomer designed more intense rides than any B&M I can think of (of course, I haven't ridden a lot). Anyway, every large Arrow looping coaster I've ridden has been a very disorienting, intense ride that I've really loved. Roughness really never bothered me (the only coaster I've noticed it on is the old Steel Phantom and even then it really didn't bother me too much). I absolutely love Arrow's tight loops - they bring me close to blacking out almost every single time. You go through them so fast, you can really feel the forces. While there's things I enjoy about B&M loopers too, I believe that the coaster world would be missing alot without Arrow loopers (and I don't mean their influences on others...I mean the rides themselves).
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Coming to CP in 2002: Boeckling's Revenge! Yet another renovation to the Hotel Breakers!
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Coming to CP in 2002: Boeckling's Revenge! Yet another renovation to the Hotel Breakers!
B&M inverts do indeed age well, but I wish I could say the same for their stand ups. Both Great America's have B&M's oldest inverts and stand ups. The inverts are still glass smooth and intense. While both stand ups are almost as rough and headbashing as any old Arrow or Togo. Go figure.
As far as Ron, I agree that Arrow as a whole made the most significant contributions to the evolution of the steel coaster than anyone else. But the reality is, Ron didn't care for coasters, it was just another engineering job for him. I and probably most of us here would kill for a dream job like he had. But he being a non-coaster enthusiast, it was probably just a paycheck to him, which might explain the hits and misses. Kinda like me, I do accounting for a living, and am very good at it, but I really could care less about accounting. It's just another job to pay the bills and keep food on the table.
Who knows, if someone else instead of Ron had been in this spot, who did have the enthusiasm and passion for coasters, what kind of amazing rides would we now have? It's been proven, when you're passionate about something, you can do incredible things . . .
As far as Ron, I agree that Arrow as a whole made the most significant contributions to the evolution of the steel coaster than anyone else. But the reality is, Ron didn't care for coasters, it was just another engineering job for him. I and probably most of us here would kill for a dream job like he had. But he being a non-coaster enthusiast, it was probably just a paycheck to him, which might explain the hits and misses. Kinda like me, I do accounting for a living, and am very good at it, but I really could care less about accounting. It's just another job to pay the bills and keep food on the table.
Who knows, if someone else instead of Ron had been in this spot, who did have the enthusiasm and passion for coasters, what kind of amazing rides would we now have? It's been proven, when you're passionate about something, you can do incredible things . . .
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