Arrow vs Vekoma question

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:45 PM
How is it that Vekoma can sell rides which use the same track style as Arrow, and use the same style of trains, and sell some of the same types of rides (looper, suspended, floorless suspended) not be violating some patent laws somewhere?
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:45 PM
Its because Arrow is also a track designer besides a coaster firm. They like to sell their track, so they are more then happy to have Vekoma buy it. Now if Vekoma somehow copied their blueprints and trains Im sure they would have a problem.

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Summer 03-CP, HP, Canobie, SFNE, SFWOA, and SFGAm.

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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:54 PM
Interesting. . .
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:59 PM
Vekoma agreed to use Arrow trains for 'x' number of years, in exchange fot track specs and technology. Vekoma at one point years ago was the major player in Europe, so Arrow's break into the market was a 'loose partnership' with them. This was not related to the Huss merger of the 80's.

The benefits was that Vekoma could put a coaster on the market, and not have the r/d costs of designing trains. Arrow had several models already to go on track that was originally gauged by them.

This goes back to earlier discussions of not many coaster companies actually build a coaster from scratch. Arrow was pretty much the only company that could fabricate an entire ride at their facility. Vekoma was about 10-15 years behind, and even now they continue to outsource and downsize.

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The Empire will Strike Back....
"What do I know, I only work in an Amusement Park?"
"You are paying to get in. Period."

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Thursday, May 1, 2003 1:06 PM
Also, remember that US patents are only valid for 17 years after they are granted. I would think that most (Prior to 1985) of Arrows basic patents have expired.
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Thursday, May 1, 2003 1:45 PM
true.....but all the old arrow ideas r very old and wont be used again. I dont see a park asking for a arrow mega looper. Their latest model 'X' is protected and thats all that really matters.
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Thursday, May 1, 2003 6:16 PM
Vekoma track is NOT the same as Arrow track, but it is compatible with Arrow track...it's the same gauge, and it's a very similar design.

You can easily identify Vekoma track by the two bolts in the non-guidewheel side of the rail at the track joints.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Thursday, May 1, 2003 7:12 PM
I am suprised that no one has metioned how Morgan fits into the pie.

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CBCon Quote "We didn't even get wet"......30 seconds later you hear plop, then splash!!!!

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Friday, May 2, 2003 5:34 AM
Nobody asked! :)

Ed Morgan was co-founder of Arrow Development. Dana Morgan was President of Arrow before opting not to participate in the buy-out and instead setting up Morgan Manufacturing. Perhaps it was something to do with not wanting to move to Utah? (just a wild guess).

To make the relationship between Arrow and Morgan even more incestuous, at least one, and perhaps several, Arrow engineers (the best-known name would probably be Steve Okamoto) went to work for Morgan some years ago.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Friday, May 2, 2003 9:43 AM
Has CoastaKing been to Dollywood? ;) Also note that Vekoma track tends to have their crossties spaced closer together regardless of where the ride has higher forces..... Arrows are spaced further apart on straightaways and slower areas of the ride. This is really common on the older loopers.
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Brad Sherman
The Headless Horseman awaits thee in 2003!
Arrowed!
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Friday, May 2, 2003 10:07 AM
Ahem,

Vekoma used to make their own rides and buy arrow corkscrew vehicles, the track cross section is "arrow". When Huss owned Arrow the drawings were sold to Vekoma so they could manufacture their own vehicles.

Sidenote: Arrow rides used to be welded-up in the field (JUNK) Alan Schilke changed that and now the track sections are bolt-up with a pin and socket connection on the running rails.(SWEET)


*** This post was edited by Evil Coaster Designer 5/2/2003 2:08:09 PM ***

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Saturday, May 3, 2003 7:46 PM
What I want to know is why the Arrow/Vekoma U-brackets (ties) are so much thicker than say Morgan or B&M. Intamin I can see because they are made of tubes.

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Fear the Wrath of the Orient Express!!
www.pkixtreme.tk

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Saturday, May 3, 2003 8:58 PM
OrientExpress, it uses less material for the same strength to make something out of a square tube. Therefore if your labor cost is relatively low, a built up structure makes sense. The arrow cross ties are square tubing.

Morgan uses the solid piece of steel because their center spine is cut and welded instead of bent. That large thick piece of steel makes for easy welding. Its much easier to weld a tube to a flat plate than it us to weld a tube to another tube.

I can't speculate on why the B&M cross ties are solid, but it probably comes down to cost. When there are two perfectly good ways of doing the same thing the smart engineer always goes with the cheaper solution.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 4:47 AM
What part of the BM track is hollow? Some part has to be because of their "quiet" model in which something is filled with sand.

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Summer 03-CP, HP, Canobie, SFNE, SFWOA, and SFGAm.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 5:01 AM
TD, its the spine and the running rails, both are hollow and can be filled with sand to quiet the coaster's movements.

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Shaun Rajewski
CoasterLine
http://www.coasterline.com

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 5:09 AM
Thanks RCT2K

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Summer 03-CP, HP, Canobie, SFNE, SFWOA, and SFGAm.

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