Arrow coasters - all they're cracked up to be?
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StandUpFan said:
"B&M is without question the best company in the industry -- they're just on a different level than anyone else; anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get out and ride some B&M's (May I suggest the Kraken?). One of the things I least like to hear is that a park has hired someone other than B&M to do a major ride. Regardless of how good it is, we're left to dream of how much better a B&M would have been."
And here is this trend, again, of some sort of 'coaster afficinado superiority'. If someone doesn't find B&M to be the end all be all of steel coasters, that doesnt mean that they havent rode B&Ms, just that they have a different opinion. Personally, while I enjoy their coasters (it is a coaster after all) I find Intamin creations to be more enjoyable. And I, for one, would not care to see S:ROS (any of them), S:UE, nor MF done by B&M as I feel the 4-across trains would dtract somewhat from the ride experience. So, while YOU are left to dream "we're" not. Please make an effort to not to speak for all, but just for yourself. Thank you, please drive thru.
lata,
jeremy
-- One man, one voice. *** This post was edited by 2Hostyl on 1/23/2001. ***
One major flaw I find with B&M's are that they're almost over-engineered. Good for inversions, OK for weightlessness, bad for airtime.
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
I haven't been on too many arrows, but I love Viper at sfmm. People always give it a hard time, but I love the first drop, and the SLOW corkscrew. The first loop so high up in the air is pretty cool too! Not to mention the speed. For some reason, Viper seems faster than Goliath.
You guys are foggetting one thing! ARROWS ARE TOO ROUGH TO BE ENJOYABLE! They can have good pacing but who cares if you can't ride them because they kill your head.
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What is life without geniuses?
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What is life without geniuses?
ShiveringTim said:
"One major flaw I find with B&M's are that they're almost over-engineered. Good for inversions, OK for weightlessness, bad for airtime."
Hmmm...try telling me that when I'm flying around everywhere while riding Raging Bull or Apollo's Chariot. I will then proceed to laugh at you. ;)
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SixFlags purchases Australia!
Let me rephrase my earlier comment. B&M tends to engineer everything right down the center of the tolerance so you really don't get any ejector air but more weightlessness. There's a huge difference between weightlessness (zero-g) and airtime (negative-g).
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
To whomever said that B&Ms aren't innovative, they built the first inverteds, built sit-down way better than most Arrows, and they built the verticaldrop coaster. They came up with some great new inversions like cobra rolls, diving loops, and the absolute best inversion ever, the zero-G roll.
As for not having airtime, try riding Hulk and feel the air off the brakes, or Dueling Dragons Fire and get the pop over the camel back. What about getting airtime while you're upside down on a zero-G roll? I haven't ridden any of B&M's hypers, but everything I've read about them says they're full of airtime.
I do like Arrow, and am thankful for their many innovations (tubular steel track, inversions, suspended coasters, hypercoasters) but I think that a B&M with its smoothness and intensity beats an Arrow any day. As for X, that's one coaster I can't wait to ride.
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Theme Park New England
http://tpne.8m.com
As for not having airtime, try riding Hulk and feel the air off the brakes, or Dueling Dragons Fire and get the pop over the camel back. What about getting airtime while you're upside down on a zero-G roll? I haven't ridden any of B&M's hypers, but everything I've read about them says they're full of airtime.
I do like Arrow, and am thankful for their many innovations (tubular steel track, inversions, suspended coasters, hypercoasters) but I think that a B&M with its smoothness and intensity beats an Arrow any day. As for X, that's one coaster I can't wait to ride.
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Theme Park New England
http://tpne.8m.com
Please allow me to clear up a few things.
Yes they did.
That is only a matter of opinion.
Yes, but the TOGO Ultra twister, which has a drop of similar verticality was created way before Oblivion.
The first so-called Cobra Roll was actually called a Bat Wing and was found on Drachen Fire, an Arrow Coaster. Diving loops are essentially just the first half of an Arrow boomerang, though slightly elongated.
If you mean the element found on Kumba, I'll give you that B&M was the first to use it. I'm not yet ready to cop to that being the best inversion element though (that would be the Vekoma rollover' IMO ;)).
Didnt feel a drop of it...and I sat in the last row.
That, OTOH, was wonderful!
Okay, I dont consider that airtime, that is simply falling. Same goes for the big freaking loops. Vortex (PKI) has the same silly feeling on the corkscrews.
Cant speak for Apollo's䌀栀愀爀椀漀琀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 刀愀最椀渀最 䈀甀氀氀 椀猀 琀栀攀 匀栀椀稀稀渀椀琀Ⰰ 攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀氀礀 渀攀愀爀 琀栀攀 戀愀挀欀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀爀愀椀渀⸀ 一漀眀 琀栀攀 搀爀漀瀀 漀昀昀 琀栀攀 洀椀搀挀漀甀爀猀攀 漀渀 䈀甀氀氀 椀猀 愀椀爀琀椀洀攀 最愀氀漀爀攀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀㰀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀椀㸀䤀 搀漀 氀椀欀攀 䄀爀爀漀眀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀洀 琀栀愀渀欀昀甀氀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀椀爀 洀愀渀礀 椀渀渀漀瘀愀琀椀漀渀猀 ⠀琀甀戀甀氀愀爀 猀琀攀攀氀 琀爀愀挀欀Ⰰ 椀渀瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀猀Ⰰ 猀甀猀瀀攀渀搀攀搀 挀漀愀猀琀攀爀猀Ⰰ 栀礀瀀攀爀挀漀愀猀琀攀爀猀⤀ 戀甀琀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀愀琀 愀 䈀☀䴀 眀椀琀栀 椀琀猀 猀洀漀漀琀栀渀攀猀猀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀渀猀椀琀礀 戀攀愀琀猀 愀渀 䄀爀爀漀眀 愀渀礀 搀愀礀⸀㰀⼀椀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀⼀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀 圀攀氀氀Ⰰ 䤀 最甀攀猀猀 眀攀 愀氀氀 栀愀瘀攀 搀椀昀昀攀爀椀渀最 漀瀀椀渀椀漀渀猀⸀ 吀栀愀琀✀猀 挀漀漀氀 琀栀漀甀最栀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀㰀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀椀㸀䄀猀 昀漀爀 堀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀✀猀 漀渀攀 挀漀愀猀琀攀爀 䤀 挀愀渀✀琀 眀愀椀琀 琀漀 爀椀搀攀⸀㰀⼀椀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀⼀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀 㰀戀爀㸀唀渀昀漀爀琀甀渀愀琀攀氀礀Ⰰ 䤀 眀椀氀氀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀⸀⸀⸀戀甀琀 漀渀攀 搀愀礀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀氀愀琀愀Ⰰ 㰀戀爀㸀樀攀爀攀洀礀
themeparkne said:
"To whomever said that B&Ms aren't innovative, they built the first inverteds,
Yes they did.
built sit-down way better than most Arrows,
That is only a matter of opinion.
and they built the verticaldrop coaster.
Yes, but the TOGO Ultra twister, which has a drop of similar verticality was created way before Oblivion.
They came up with some great new inversions like cobra rolls, diving loops,
The first so-called Cobra Roll was actually called a Bat Wing and was found on Drachen Fire, an Arrow Coaster. Diving loops are essentially just the first half of an Arrow boomerang, though slightly elongated.
and the absolute best inversion ever, the zero-G roll.
If you mean the element found on Kumba, I'll give you that B&M was the first to use it. I'm not yet ready to cop to that being the best inversion element though (that would be the Vekoma rollover' IMO ;)).
As for not having airtime, try riding Hulk and feel the air off the brakes,
Didnt feel a drop of it...and I sat in the last row.
or Dueling Dragons Fire and get the pop over the camel back.
That, OTOH, was wonderful!
What about getting airtime while you're upside down on a zero-G roll?
Okay, I dont consider that airtime, that is simply falling. Same goes for the big freaking loops. Vortex (PKI) has the same silly feeling on the corkscrews.
I haven't ridden any of B&M's hypers, but everything I've read about them says they're full of airtime.
Cant speak for Apollo's䌀栀愀爀椀漀琀Ⰰ 戀甀琀 刀愀最椀渀最 䈀甀氀氀 椀猀 琀栀攀 匀栀椀稀稀渀椀琀Ⰰ 攀猀瀀攀挀椀愀氀氀礀 渀攀愀爀 琀栀攀 戀愀挀欀 漀昀 琀栀攀 琀爀愀椀渀⸀ 一漀眀 琀栀攀 搀爀漀瀀 漀昀昀 琀栀攀 洀椀搀挀漀甀爀猀攀 漀渀 䈀甀氀氀 椀猀 愀椀爀琀椀洀攀 最愀氀漀爀攀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀㰀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀椀㸀䤀 搀漀 氀椀欀攀 䄀爀爀漀眀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 愀洀 琀栀愀渀欀昀甀氀 昀漀爀 琀栀攀椀爀 洀愀渀礀 椀渀渀漀瘀愀琀椀漀渀猀 ⠀琀甀戀甀氀愀爀 猀琀攀攀氀 琀爀愀挀欀Ⰰ 椀渀瘀攀爀猀椀漀渀猀Ⰰ 猀甀猀瀀攀渀搀攀搀 挀漀愀猀琀攀爀猀Ⰰ 栀礀瀀攀爀挀漀愀猀琀攀爀猀⤀ 戀甀琀 䤀 琀栀椀渀欀 琀栀愀琀 愀 䈀☀䴀 眀椀琀栀 椀琀猀 猀洀漀漀琀栀渀攀猀猀 愀渀搀 椀渀琀攀渀猀椀琀礀 戀攀愀琀猀 愀渀 䄀爀爀漀眀 愀渀礀 搀愀礀⸀㰀⼀椀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀⼀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀 圀攀氀氀Ⰰ 䤀 最甀攀猀猀 眀攀 愀氀氀 栀愀瘀攀 搀椀昀昀攀爀椀渀最 漀瀀椀渀椀漀渀猀⸀ 吀栀愀琀✀猀 挀漀漀氀 琀栀漀甀最栀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀㰀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀椀㸀䄀猀 昀漀爀 堀Ⰰ 琀栀愀琀✀猀 漀渀攀 挀漀愀猀琀攀爀 䤀 挀愀渀✀琀 眀愀椀琀 琀漀 爀椀搀攀⸀㰀⼀椀㸀㰀栀爀㸀㰀⼀戀氀漀挀欀焀甀漀琀攀㸀 㰀戀爀㸀唀渀昀漀爀琀甀渀愀琀攀氀礀Ⰰ 䤀 眀椀氀氀 栀愀瘀攀 琀漀⸀⸀⸀戀甀琀 漀渀攀 搀愀礀℀ 㰀戀爀㸀氀愀琀愀Ⰰ 㰀戀爀㸀樀攀爀攀洀礀
ShiveringTim said:
"Let me rephrase my earlier comment. B&M tends to engineer everything right down the center of the tolerance so you really don't get any ejector air but more weightlessness. There's a huge difference between weightlessness (zero-g) and airtime (negative-g)."
Again, I disagree. Try telling me there is no ejector air on Raging Bull's first drop, third drop, and block drop. I, again, will proceed to laugh at you. ;)
Not trying to be hard on you, but just stating my point of view. Now, if you said a lot of their inverteds don't have air, then I'd agree with you. But since you just said "B&M" and that includes their hypers, well, I can't agree. Such is life, though! :)
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SixFlags purchases Australia!
I'll agree with you on Bull's first and block. Same goes for pretty much any straight drop off flat section on a B&M. That just the physics of those elements. Same goes for Ghostrider and it's Death Drop and the Raven's 5th.
I guess what I'm trying to say here (and to get our part of this thread back on topic) is that the Arrow airtime seems more accidental and extreme (Magnum, CP Corkscrew, PKI Vortex) where B&M, Intamin, and others tend to manufacture weightlessness, and that I prefer it on an Arrow, probably because I consider CP home. Same goes for your and the Bull. You're just defending your ride. :)
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
I guess what I'm trying to say here (and to get our part of this thread back on topic) is that the Arrow airtime seems more accidental and extreme (Magnum, CP Corkscrew, PKI Vortex) where B&M, Intamin, and others tend to manufacture weightlessness, and that I prefer it on an Arrow, probably because I consider CP home. Same goes for your and the Bull. You're just defending your ride. :)
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
ShiveringTim said:
"I'll agree with you on Bull's first and block. Same goes for pretty much any straight drop off flat section on a B&M. That just the physics of those elements. Same goes for Ghostrider and it's Death Drop and the Raven's 5th.
I guess what I'm trying to say here (and to get our part of this thread back on topic) is that the Arrow airtime seems more accidental and extreme (Magnum, CP Corkscrew, PKI Vortex) where B&M, Intamin, and others tend to manufacture weightlessness, and that I prefer it on an Arrow, probably because I consider CP home. Same goes for your and the Bull. You're just defending your ride. :)"
Accidental airtime, now THAT'S funny! I love it, perfect description of Arrow.
Now one thing I can't agree with you on (and I think you'll retract this statement, too) is Intamin air. I know you've ridden both SFNE RoS and SFDL RoS. You're going to tell me that those are "weightlessness" hills that I'm going over (SFDL's third and bunny hops, SFNE's 3rd and 4th straight hills)? I don't think weightlessness will eject some guy out of his seat off a bunny hop. Yam I right folks? ;)
I'm not really defending my ride, I'd say the same thing if I didn't op it, just like I think AC has ejector air on first drop, block drop, and last drop. But I'll give you that Arrow has its own personality of airtime. Same with B&M's, Intamins, CCI's, GCI's, etc.
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SixFlags purchases Australia!
As much as I might dislike Arrow, I expect "X" to be a very good coaster. Arrow has had plenty of innovations in the past, but I think most or all of them have been vastly improved by other companies and I hope "X" will be the same way.
Hey 2Hostyl, sorry for seemingly offending you with those B&M comments. I never intend to speak for everybody; I should have said so but I didn't. My post seemed to give that impression, but that's my mistake. So, for all future purposes, anything I say is only my opinion, distorted as it might be, and should be taken as such. Hopefully that'll clear things up a bit.
Hey 2Hostyl, sorry for seemingly offending you with those B&M comments. I never intend to speak for everybody; I should have said so but I didn't. My post seemed to give that impression, but that's my mistake. So, for all future purposes, anything I say is only my opinion, distorted as it might be, and should be taken as such. Hopefully that'll clear things up a bit.
Very true. Intamin is kind of in the middle of this discussion. Since this is an Arrow thread (another attempt to bring this back on topic. I am a moderator, you know), I never thought of how Intamins handle airtime compared to others. I would have to say that they go for the B&M-style weightlessness but get way more than expected.
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
StandUpFan: It is I who should apologize. Sorry, I was riding my 'high horse' again. Sometimes I get a little worked out about other 'real life' stuff and it seeps into my park life (which is really bad when the nearest open park is a $200 flight away :)). I dint really take it to heart like that. We still cool!
lata,
jeremy
--reaching for his 'chill pill'
lata,
jeremy
--reaching for his 'chill pill'
The only big Arrow coasters I have rode are Steel Phantom, Magnum, Corkscrew, Double Loop, Loch Ness Monster, Big Bad Wolf, Iron Dragon, and probably a few others I can't think of. Truthfully I have only found Steel Phantom to be rough out of all of those, but I learned how to position my head to prevent head banging. I have found Double Loop and Corkscrew to be pretty smooth and the airtime on that second hill in the back seat is incredible. :) I wouldn't mind a bit of a resurgence of suspended coasters as long as they are as good as Big Bad Wolf. I got a bad impression of suspended when I rode Iron Dragon and I wasn't expecting much from Big Bad Wolf either but boy was I blown away. Although not the biggest fan of Arrow, I hope that their 4D coasters do well for them.
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Joe Cernelli
Head Webmaster, Kennywood Boulevard
kennywood@coasterbuzz.com
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/
Phantom's Revenge in 2001!
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Joe Cernelli
Head Webmaster, Kennywood Boulevard
kennywood@coasterbuzz.com
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com/
Phantom's Revenge in 2001!
One of my favorite coasters is an Arrow. The Vortex at PCW is a great ride, my only complaint is that it's too short. Some of those turns pull some great G's. I would love to see Arrow make more of them.
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-Dave Rutherford
*If things seem under control, you're just not going fast enough*
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-Dave Rutherford
*If things seem under control, you're just not going fast enough*
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