December 31, 2009, 4:41P

bwillis

I've been a huge fan of CP for 3 decades and I appreciate all the new attractions they have added during this time, but it seems other aspects of the park have declined. Do others notice it as well?

  • Employees are not as friendly, some have been extremely rude (In addition, just a handfull of ride ops do a great job anymore)
  • Very slow service at the concessions (no-care attitude)
  • Atmosphere
  • Cleanliness

I have witnessed some pretty disturbing things in the past few years. Kinzel and other executives would be quite up-set if they knew what was going on in their park.


Koaster Krazy!

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December 31, 2009, 5:49P

Hopman

Part of the reason employees may not be as friendly is all the bull they put up with from the managers. (I can speak from experirence. I worked at CP in '05 on Group Utility.)

Since the employees aren't treated with respect, everything else falls with it. CP & the CF parks are becoming like the Six Flags park were at the beginning of the decade.


Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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December 31, 2009, 7:16P

CoasterDemon

CoasterDemon's avatar

Large amounts of concrete can emit harmful rays that invade your brain and turn off the frontal lobe.


Billy
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December 31, 2009, 8:26P

LostKause

LostKause's avatar

What Hopman said.

And...I think that in their insatiable quest for profit, the budgets have been cut all the way down into the quick. Employees feel budget cuts the hardest. They have to make up for the slack of missing positions, clean with insufficient supplies, eat insufficient employee food, sleep in insufficient living quarters. They have to put up with Cedar Point Police, who seem to have not received adequate training.

Crap rolls downhill. Bosses at the top treat their employees like crap, and in turn they take it out on their employees, and so on and so forth, until it hits the bottom; the customer.


Travis - http://soundcloud.com/orfanhed
I don't personally know you, but if I did, we would probably be friends. :)

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December 31, 2009, 9:12P

kRaXLeRidAh

It's not just at Cedar Point. It's West Coast sister park Knott's has been the same for a few years now and counting. I have no stepped foot into Knott's Berry Farm in over 2 years and I used to love working there and would often visit as many as 5 times a year.

Without the old charm, peaceful atmosphere and friendliness it was always known for, Knott's is now just a Magic Mountain, but with crappy rides.

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December 31, 2009, 9:53P

crazy horse

crazy horse's avatar

I think it's cedarfair in general.

I have been to kd, ki, cp, ma, and carowinds this past summer. Each of the parks had hit or miss service and overpriced BAD food. They were not nearly as clean as they used to be.

It's kinda weird to, as six flags has seemed to have gotton there act together for the most part. We were very supprised when at six flags parks this summer. They were almost spotless, the employies were very friendly, and they had most of the rides running at full capacity. The food at six flags is also much better than anything you will find inside cedarpoint. This is a first.

We paid $30 for a meal for the 2 of us at six flags. We got a huge bucket of chicken tenders, fries, desert, and two souvinear refillable sports bottles. The food was very good and hot, and the service was good.We coulden't even finish it all because there was so much food. At cedarpoint, we paid $40 for two crappy burgers, cold fries, and two sodas the last time I ate there. We waited in line almost 30 min and there were only maybe 5 people in front of us. This seemed to be the norm at all of the cedarfair parks I was at this summer.

I have not even renewed my cedarfair platinum pass yet. $160....ouch!!!

I got my six flags pass for $50, plus another $45 for parking(good for all six flags parks). When all was said and done, I only paid $95 for my six flags pass. And that also included a booklet full of coupons, and I believe I also get 2 free tickets for friends as well.

I really am bummed about cedarpoint. It is my home park, and I have seen it go downhill the last 5-6 years.


what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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January 1, 2010, 7:46A

Hopman

LostKause said:
What Hopman said.

And...I think that in their insatiable quest for profit, the budgets have been cut all the way down into the quick. Employees feel budget cuts the hardest. They have to make up for the slack of missing positions, clean with insufficient supplies, eat insufficient employee food, sleep in insufficient living quarters. They have to put up with Cedar Point Police, who seem to have not received adequate training.

Crap rolls downhill. Bosses at the top treat their employees like crap, and in turn they take it out on their employees, and so on and so forth, until it hits the bottom; the customer.

LK. you mean we actually AGREE on something for a change? ;)

The ONLY reason why CF has been able to get away with this is they the economy is sucking and people are deespirate for jobs, so they'll put up with a lot. On the other end, I think CF is to the point of raising prices too high, which will ultimaly HURT them.


Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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January 1, 2010, 11:28A

Ensign Smith

Here's what I think the primary problem with Cedar Point is.

CP is located in between two non-growth, and in the case of Detroit -- declining, markets. (And despite its real claims to being a national or international destination, its bread and butter remains the local region.) So there is a finite, fixed pool of customers to draw from.

Since the park can't realistically expect to significantly improve attendance numbers, it must keep adding attractions in order to keep the crowds it already has. The problem with this is that each new coaster or marquee ride entails a higher operations and maintenance budget. So revenue from the gate remains flat, while costs continue to climb.

This dynamic has been offset and disguised for a number of years by jacking up the per cap. It's worked for a while; customers continue to need to eat food and drink liquids during their visits. Unfortunately, the bloom is now off that rose. Per cap has apparently maxed out in the last season or two. The park is now in the situation where trying to squeeze anything else out of its customers will only serve to further cannibalize merch and games revenues -- and jeopardize the pool of future customers, as well.

In something akin to desperation, the park has responded by slashing operations and Live E budgets. Except there's not much fat left to slash. Real day to day operations suffer, and customers take notice.

A case could be made that Cedar Point is now simply too big of a park to service its markets. Perhaps if the economy rebounds the situation will improve (though don't look for Michigan and northern Ohio to be the first ones on the recovery bus.) Even if the region undergoes a substantial recovery, however, CP will never again see the magic attendance it witnessed in the the glory days of the mid-90's, no matter how hard Kinzel wants to believe it.

So what can/should the park do? Some things, it has already begun. It's already well along in the process of re-educating the populace (certain reluctant enthusiasts in particular) that they don't need a new rolly coaster every two years. Changing that mindset is like wrangling cats, but it's what the park has to do to survive. This is why an investment like Starlite was brilliant. It's a relatively low expenditure for a low-maintenance attraction that can appeal to the entire park-goer demographic.

The other major thing that can be done, also well underway, is substituting the idea of 'replacement' for 'addition'. Cedar Point isn't out of room, but from the list of rides that have had to be cleared to make way for new attractions over the last decade, you wouldn't know. White Water Landing didn't have to go in order for Maverick to be installed -- Maverick's arrival was the excuse for WWL's departure. (Although this isn't a very good example of what I'm trying to describe, as Maverick's operational and maintenance budget is most certainly higher than WWL's.)

CP is a mature park now. In order to sustain profitable seasons, it will be necessary to change how the park grows. In the decade to come, expect the departures of Mean Streak, Corkscrew, and Mantis. Will they be replaced by three new coasters? Probably not. Maybe one or two, but not three. It would be wise for the park to invest in lower cost attractions, like dark rides or junior woodies.

Or I could be full of it. Probably.


Now standing and operational: Chums of Coasterdom.
chumsofcdom.wordpress.com/

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January 1, 2010, 11:48A

Neuski

You have no idea if Maverick costs them more to maintain than WWL.


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January 1, 2010, 1:14P

LostKause

LostKause's avatar

Ensign Smith said:

...Or I could be full of it. Probably.

Even if you are full of it, this was avery interesting and well written way of viewing CP's situation by someone who is not on the inside of the business.

I wonder if they could get away with raising the gate price? For what Cedar point offers, it is pretty low. Some would call the admission price "reasonable", but I believe that they could raise it by $10. That would help them to offer the quality that they used to offer, and stay profitable.

I'm talking an admission price of around $55. $75 or $80 would be way too much. They are not in Central Florida.


Travis - http://soundcloud.com/orfanhed
I don't personally know you, but if I did, we would probably be friends. :)

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January 1, 2010, 1:19P

Lord Gonchar

Lord Gonchar's avatar

Ensign Smith said:
So what can/should the park do? Some things, it has already begun. It's already well along in the process of re-educating the populace (certain reluctant enthusiasts in particular) that they don't need a new rolly coaster every two years.

A very wise man said the same thing on the last Podcast. :)

LostKause said:
I wonder if they could get away with raising the gate price? For what Cedar point offers, it is pretty low. Some would call the admission price "reasonable", but I believe that they could raise it by $10.

The same wise man has been saying that for years and years now. :)

Edited to add:

Just noticed that for 2010 HW's listed gate is only $4 less than CP's listed gate. And CP's listed gate is $16 less than BGW's. Hmmm.

Maybe my 2015 predicitions from a few years back weren't too far off? :)

CP definitely has room to up the gate...lots of room.

Last edited by Lord Gonchar, January 1, 2010, 1:42P


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January 1, 2010, 1:38P

LostKause

LostKause's avatar

I guess it finally reached my brain, from your mouth / fingers, Gonch. :)


Travis - http://soundcloud.com/orfanhed
I don't personally know you, but if I did, we would probably be friends. :)

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January 1, 2010, 1:53P

Jeff

Jeff's avatar

CoasterDemon said:
Large amounts of concrete can emit harmful rays that invade your brain and turn off the frontal lobe.

This is lame every time I hear it, and I'm still waiting for someone to point out where these desolate concrete areas devoid of trees are.


Jeff - Webmaster/Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog - Twitter - Video

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January 1, 2010, 1:56P

Hopman

In the decade to come, expect the departures of Mean Streak, Corkscrew, and Mantis.

What are you smoking???? Did you drink some bad champaigne last night? If anything, Disaster Transport needs to hit the scrap heap before 'Screw or Mantis!

One of the BIG factors in CP decline, espeaclly in the last few years, has been Kinzel's ego!


Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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January 1, 2010, 3:08P

bwillis

Jeff said:

CoasterDemon said:
Large amounts of concrete can emit harmful rays that invade your brain and turn off the frontal lobe.

This is lame every time I hear it, and I'm still waiting for someone to point out where these desolate concrete areas devoid of trees are.

So many people make comments about Cedar Fair and their obsession with concrete. I think Cedar Point creates a nice distinction between its main midway (concrete) and other areas of the park such as Frontier Trail and Town. It allows its visitors to enjoy different lands (if you will), very similar to the ambiance Disney cretes at the Magic Kindom.

I agree with a lot of what people are saying in this forum, from what I gather, CF needs to practice the golden rule of business and start treating their employees with respect, train them properly and in turn will positively affect the customer. New rides do not make up for poor customer service.


Koaster Krazy!

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January 1, 2010, 3:20P

Hopman

CF needs to practice the golden rule of business and start treating their employees with respect, train them properly and in turn will positively affect the customer. New rides do not make up for poor customer service.

Well said! They also need to start PAYING their employees more. I'm not saying a king's ransom, but $8.00-9.00 hr (why you typically see in retail these days), while low, would still be better than the chicken feed they pay now. Overtime pay would be nice too, espeaclly when many employees typically put in 50+ hour weeks during the season. But that may be asking too much.

The food could also be MUCH better too. I'm not asking for 5-star dining, here, but something, ANYTHING would be better that the slop they serve now.

Let's see: they could also loosen up their dress code policies a tad (the no beards thing is nuts), and get some more comfortable uniforms. I could go on, but I might start "threadjacking."


Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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January 1, 2010, 3:32P

Ensign Smith

Hopman said:

In the decade to come, expect the departures of Mean Streak, Corkscrew, and Mantis.

What are you smoking???? Did you drink some bad champaigne last night? If anything, Disaster Transport needs to hit the scrap heap before 'Screw or Mantis!

But Hopmeister, I didn't say Disaster wasn't going too.... They just have to figure out which park to, um, Transport it. ;)


Now standing and operational: Chums of Coasterdom.
chumsofcdom.wordpress.com/

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January 1, 2010, 3:35P

Hopman

Easy. It's going to get shredded into scrap, put on a freighter, and send to Japan to make Prius parts!


Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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January 1, 2010, 3:37P

Jeffrey Seifert

Jeff said:


CoasterDemon said:
Large amounts of concrete can emit harmful rays that invade your brain and turn off the frontal lobe.

This is lame every time I hear it, and I'm still waiting for someone to point out where these desolate concrete areas devoid of trees are.

When you look at a satellite photo you can see there is quite a bit in the main midway, the midway leading to the train station, and the Oceana Midway (or whatever they call that now-a-days):
http://tinyurl.com/yzpl8zv

I also think part of the reason it gets mentioned so often is the fact that it is just plain concrete. Most parks of this caliber have their walkways, particularly the main areas just inside the gate, covered with pavers, sprayed with gunite or use something with a texture like stamped concrete or asphalt. These are less garish and noticeable than plain old concrete and tend to make the area look much more aesthetically pleasing.

In reality there are probably plenty of parks with wide open paved areas, they just aren't as noticeable.

Last edited by Jeffrey Seifert, January 1, 2010, 3:39P

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January 1, 2010, 3:51P

Ensign Smith

Hopman said:
Easy. It's going to get shredded into scrap, put on a freighter, and send to Japan to make Prius parts!

You think so? See, I was going to go with 'Knotts'. But hey, why would they even consider sending a 20+ year old, antiquated ride to a nice park like that? ;)


Now standing and operational: Chums of Coasterdom.
chumsofcdom.wordpress.com/

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