Big Dipper owner a mystery, bids for Geauga Lake land too low to sell

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, no one taking the position that Cedar Fair bought Geauga Lake simply to close it has been able to offer a logical explanation as to why Cedar Fair might have done this. No one.

After discussing this at length on four different boards I’d really like to hear a good explanation or theory as to why Cedar Fair might have done this. I’m tired of the “it’s just my opinion”. That’s great, but let’s back up that opinion with some explanation or reasoning as to why they might have done this. If it’s possibly true, then there must be a reason why. Please don’t say you believe it based on how the events carried out. That's the only explanation I ever hear.

Seriously, why would Cedar Fair (in 2004) possibly decide to buy Geauga Lake with the sole intent to close it? Why would that be a good business move for the company?
*** This post was edited by egieszl 8/28/2008 3:30:55 AM ***

But what's wrong with that answer? If someone is connecting the dots and drawing that conclusion, isn't that their right?

My opinion is that Cedar Fair didn't want a threat to Cedar Point in the northern Ohio market. I think the fact that Six Flags was building a true competitor in a region they had dominated for years worried them, and when the opportunity came for them to purchase the park, they jumped at the chance. The purchase price was right. If the park happened to become successful once again, at least the money paid for the park wasn't outrageous. However, that didn't seem to be what was expected since practically nothing was done to the park.

When Cedar Fair purchased Dorney Park (which operated in a very crowded market dominated by Hersheypark and Great Adventure), the first thing they did was invest tons of money in the place. When Worlds of Fun was purchased, Mamba was constructed. When Knott's was purchased, the investments were obvious. What was the result of Cedar Fair's ownership of Geauga Lake? A return to the original name out of necessity and eventually the removal of rides? Doesn't sound like the park was being given the tools it was going to need to survive.

The park was purchased for an approximate price of $100 million, right? Remove X-Flight, Dominator, Thunderhawk and Steel Venom from the park and they could easily have been added to other CF parks as highly-marketable attractions. And that's exactly what happened. Considering each of those rides would have cost about $10-$15 million each if purchased new, there was obvious money saved even if the cost of removal, refurbishment and reconstruction was attached to each one. I don't buy into your logic that CF had other expansion plans for the parks and the GL situation tossed that into chaos. The moving of an SLC to Michigan's Adventure made perfect sense. I doubt that park was destined to receive a B&M hyper or custom invert.

Say that after the best coasters were sent elsewhere, the remaining "balance" is $50 or $60 million. At the time, real estate values were high. I'm sure CF expected more than $5 million for the sale of all that acreage. The remaining cost? It's not unreasonable to believe people that once went to Geauga Lake for their amusement park fix were expected to spend their money at Cedar Point instead. After all, that park was all set for the additional business. It had hotels, restaurants and even an indoor waterpark. It had 17 coasters and loads of additional capacity throughout.

I can't be sure of Cedar Fair's actual plan. Then again, no one is. Unless someone around here climbed into Kinzel's bed while he was sleeping and heard him subconsciously whisper his true intent, my opinion isn't any more or less valid than another. I don't understand how anyone can be so sure of themselves when it comes to this. It's not like anything in Corporate America is ever as cut and dry, black and white as it seems. Internal politics alone can make what seems simple be ridiculously complex, and I doubt anyone outside of CF's corporate boardroom knows the whole story.*** This post was edited by Rob Ascough 8/28/2008 9:03:14 AM ***

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My opinion is that Cedar Fair didn't want a threat to Cedar Point in the northern Ohio market.

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Assuming just for a moment that you're right, and you're not, what would be threatening about it if you own it? I mean, they own Kings Island now so it doesn't matter if people from Columbus go to KI or CP. Are they going to close KI now too?

Come on, the distance between CP and KI is a lot greater than the distance between CP and GL. You're intelligent enough to know there's a difference.

Why would they want to go after a market with two parks when it'd be cheaper to go after it with one?

Prior to two years ago, Detroit was more than half of CP's attendance, and it's two hours away, further than anything in the Cleveland area, and totally irrelevant therefore to half of their audience. What material impact did GL ever have on CP? None! The year Six Flags peaked GL's attendance, in 2000, was the biggest year CP has had since. I can't believe you continue to believe this completely silly notion that the company would piss away tens of millions of dollars to tank a business that had no material impact on its business elsewhere.

My point was exactly the same as the one I before... now it doesn't matter where Columbus folk go, Cedar Fair gets the money either way. The same was true for GL and CP (or at least would have been).

I just can't understand your thought process that suggests a company fails on purpose except that your emotional attachment to the place interferes with your logic.

I think your last paragraph summarizes how we're coming from completely different corners. You think that I'm suggesting that Cedar Fair positioned thermselves to fail. I'm suggesting that the failure of Geauga Lake was intended to lead to greater success elsewhere.

That's the same thing, and furthermore irrational. I've already explained how "greater success" wasn't possible.

You’re coming to a conclusion based on connecting the dots, but yet you cannot explain the logic behind such a decision. It’s so illogical that your conclusion is likely wrong.

After the first year of operation Dick Kinzel was quoted in a newspaper article saying something to the extent that they underestimated the draw of the animals. Why bother saying such a thing if you intended the close the park. It wouldn’t matter would it?

You mention Cedar Fair has historically invested heavily in parks they purchase and I think you’re forgetting that Cedar Fair completed their acquisition of the park in April 2004 one month prior to the start of the season. That didn’t give them a chance to invest in Geauga Lake for their first operating season and even after the attendance disaster of the first season Cedar Fair still proceeded with their plans to spend $25 million building a new waterpark. So are you saying the $25 million invested in the new waterpark doesn’t count?

It does count and it clearly shows their commitment to the property. Most operators would’ve halted those plans, but not Cedar Fair. They wanted that property to become a successful operation to grow their business.

The removal of two roller coasters did not start until after three horrible seasons. They operated the park for three seasons before removing any attractions.

You don’t buy into my logic about moving used rides. There is no shortage of used rides on the market. If Cedar Fair wants to buy used rides they don’t have to pay “new prices” to acquire them. When you’ve got the number of properties that Cedar Fair has it isn’t hard to find a park where a relocated ride is going to make sense. That B&M floorless and Vekoma SLC were moved out of necessity, not because of a plan that was conceived in 2004 when they acquired Geauga Lake and didn’t even own Kings Dominion.

You’re applying crazy logic saying they spent $100 million for the assets and real estate. You’re applying $40 - $50 million in value to “used rides”. Cedar Fair could’ve purchased the equivalent rides brand-new for the same cash. Again, no one is going to pay new prices for used equipment.

Jeff already stated the fact that Geauga Lake was never competition for Cedar Point and it never would’ve been competition. You know the saying about location. Geauga Lake didn’t have the location, amenities or reputation that Cedar Point has. It wasn’t a resort destination.

If Geauga Lake were competitive then Six Flags wouldn’t have sold the park. Six Flags wanted out because they were failing, not succeeding in their foolish quest to compete with Cedar Point. They messed up a perfectly fine, profitable, regional amusement park and turned it into a disastrous mess.

The fact is Six Flags screwed the place up. They are entirely to blame for the failure.

Furthermore, if anything, Cedar Fair has lost business as a result of Geauga Lake closing.

Cedar Point isn’t gaining anything from the closure of Geauga Lake. A person who used to visit both parks in a season probably hasn’t doubled their visits to Cedar Point to offset the loss of their time spent at Geauga Lake. Instead, they’re likely spending their money on other activities or visiting other parks like Kennywood or Waldameer. The group and corporate business has gone elsewhere and again probably not to Cedar Point.

I have to agree this is irrational, sentimental thinking that doesn’t make any sense. If you’re mad then don’t visit another Six Flags park.