UPDATED: Cedar Fair opposes new 49ers stadium, team would consider buying park

^Oh, by NO means do I consider it a done deal. By ALL means do I expect that CF will *listen*, and figure out if they'd be more profitable selling or holding on and operating. The more cash they can convince the 49ers to offer, the better the chances they'd sell. If there's enough cash to make more in interest accruals than there would be by operating the park, then CF is going to start leaning toward selling...

Economics term: Anticipated cash flow analysis.

^LOL, that was in response to Dave, didn't "anticipate" that the news item would still be getting this kind of play...

...And that's the most important thing to bear in mind, Gator. No matter what happens, Cedar Fair is going to make a ton of money. If they sell, it will be for at least as much as they think they can get for operating the place. If they don't sell, they'll do what they always do, and operate the park at a handsome profit. This is one situation where Cedar Fair really can't lose!

Oh, on the other point that has worked its way into this thread, I wrote a document back in May, 1998 that might be worth a look: A Park Enthusiast's Manifesto.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Jeff, I'm going to disagree with you and probably get slammed for it, but I feel like Smith at least has some semblance of a point.

I understand your belief that you're only responsible for yourself and your consumers -- it's your corner of the Internet, you can do what you want, we've heard it, we get it, moving on -- but you have to understand that this site has gone beyond a simple hobby site into something more.

That the media calls you asking for your opinion on a topic implies that they think you are a credible, industry-related source. Whether you are or not, or whether you believe you are or not, is irrelevant. When the average American reads a quote from "the webmaster of CoasterBuzz, one of the most highly-trafficked coaster enthusiast sites on the Internet," there IS a certain amount of assumed credibility and bias that the reader is inclined to apply to that. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

People who read up on these things will know that CoasterBuzz is essentially the top site for the hobby, and that gives it a particularly stature. Seeing it in terms of a hobby site may continue to work for you, but it IS more than that. It's like when a professional athlete gets busted for something, then spouts off saying, "I'm not a role model, I just play a game for a living." We all know that's bullsh**, and he knows it too. What makes this any different?

Great America has very different values depending on whether CF is selling or paying taxes.

^^ Why am I thinking of Spider-man? "With great power comes great responsibility." Or something like that

Who people choose as a role model has nothing to do with who the media chooses as a credible industry source. Furthermore, if a reporter is doing their job (something I'm definitely not responsible for), they know the difference between my opinion and what I consider an industry observation.

If my local TV station calls again asking for an opinion on the Geauga Lake situation, shall I make something up? Again, it's not my crusade. Heck, the opinion that it's a big tragedy isn't even a majority opinion. They got that sad ACE guy on TV talking about how he was losing sleep, that's good enough.

When this site starts paying like something more than a "simple hobby," maybe I'll feel differently. With ad revenue dropping 20% on the same traffic, due the continued deterioration of the ad providers, I'm not that inclined to spend much more time thinking about it.

There are two very interesting conversations here.

The public negotiations are quite fascinating. I've been involved in some myself so I can't wait to see where this goes. The comments from the appraiser are quite sharp, while I cringed at first when Cedar Fair's press release said something about "if the people would rather a football stadium...". People are a wild card and that was a risky comment. Otherwise, I like their stance.

As far as the other convo, I am one of the people who was emotional about Geauga Lake closing. I'd be that way about any park I went to frequently closing, but I totally understand people not "caring". I have plenty of other hobbies where if part or all of it went out of business I wouldn't care. I'd bet everyone here who is taking the "wish everyone cared as much as I do" stance is the same way.

Still, I do sometimes wish people showed more compassion. If my favorite strip club (to use Gonch's analogy) went out of business, I wouldn't lose any sleep about it but I wouldn't go to their message board and be all "meh" about it, either if I knew it was going to press people's buttons.

Not that I have a favorite strip club.

- Jeff

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When this site starts paying like something more than a "simple hobby," maybe I'll feel differently. With ad revenue dropping 20% on the same traffic, due the continued deterioration of the ad providers, I'm not that inclined to spend much more time thinking about it.

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So basically you're telling us that you're only in it for the money?

that's really a sad comment. are your in park events for your profit also?

^Having revenue doesn't equal having profit. There are bills to pay after all. Bandwith and storage space arn't free.

^^ Is that a problem? Is there somethimg immoral about making a profit? What's sad about making money. Guess what, I only have a job for the money myself. Is that sad? Should I work for free? I'm not saying that Jeff only does this for the money, but if that was the case, I'm fine with that, it's still a good site.

he's already admitted that the $ puts food on his table, how much more do I need to know to establish that he's in it for the money?

I don't do anything just for the money. It has to feed the soul as well. I could be making a hell of a lot more than I do now, and in fact did for awhile, but at the expense of feeling unfulfilled.

Judge me all you want, but making a buck by running this site isn't immoral. I could be reading books, enrolling in a woodworking class or learning to cook in my spare time, but I choose this. It consumes at least 20 hours a week of my time, and that doesn't even count the time spent writing the 15,000 lines of code for the new forum so you can continue to complain online about me making money.

When you put this much time into something, and put up with people whining like that, you better believe I want a little something for my trouble.

And I make enough extra on events to cover the related expenses. That's it. I actually lost a couple of bucks on the last one because I didn't budget enough for credit card fees.

^^ I still don't see why it means anything to you. We all gotta pay da rent.

Not if you live with mom and dad.

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Jeff sayeth back: If you're going to call me out, you could at least do so by name. There's a lot of irony that you fill your posts with sarcasm that implies how full of crap I am, yet suggest I'm some kind of leader.

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Firstly, there is no irony or contradiction in stating the same person is simultaneously a leader and full of crap. Both can exist handily in the same person; see 90% of the politicians today. That being said, I don't believe I've ever stated or implied that you're "full of crap". I've definitely found myself on opposing sides of some arguments with you. If you feel that I've dealt with you with less than kid gloves, that's okay by me. This is the Internet, ya dig? I tend to interact with people as I see them. Since you tend to be brusque, combative, and sarcastic in responding to posts you disagree with, that's how I respond to you. Nothing wrong with that. Jeff, I actually have very few issues with you, and I've never met you personally.

It doesn't matter to me if you're in this for the money only. I hear you say you're not, and nobody has reason to doubt you. I hope the sites are profitable for you, and I'm saddened that your ad revenue has shrunk. That sucks.

Regardless of all those other things, you ARE considered a leader in this community, and apparently by at least some folks in the media. There is some power that comes with your position, whether you acknowledge it or not -- power to shape opinion, to help inform perspective in the 'outside' world, at the very least. What you do with that responsibility is up to you.

By the way, I never thought you were an attention whore. Sometimes attention falls on you whether you want it or not.

This isn't supposed to be a 'bash Jeff' thread. That's not what I was setting out to do. I'm still a newbie here, and I contribute far less than other wiser, more knowledgeable people here. Even if I weren't, it's generally not my nature to get all up in somebody else's grill.

Since this has officially been beaten to death, I'll take the opportunity to steer things back to topic. I suspect CF wouldn't be adverse to selling out SGA, but only if the offer was sweet enough. Seriously doubt that will be happening.

If I died tomorrow and CoasterBuzz disappeared shortly thereafter, no one would care. When I do talk to the media, it's almost never as an enthusiast, it's as an industry observer. Heck, we run the podcast that way as well. In fact, I mentioned in one of the last few shows that the greatest amount of unique visitors frequent the news on this site. While active forum readers and participants think of this largely as a forum-based community, that's not what this site, or its editor (me), are mostly about.

So again, if you want to assign responsibility as an industry observer or pundit, I'm cool with that. But I don't speak for the enthusiast community, and would never be so arrogant to assume I do. I don't present myself that way either.

Here's my whole take on the situation... not like anyone asked for it, but you know me and I'm going to give it anyway

In many ways, I agree with Dave. Jeff, you preside over the premier coaster enthusiast site on the web. We differ when it comes to many things (the only thing we seem to agree on is Kauai) but I have the utmost respect for what you've accomplished. Coasterbuzz took the concept of coaster enthusiasm and made it appealing to a great number of people that would have ignored it had it not been internet-based. You've become the "face" of this site and that's something you should be proud of- everything good about this site goes back to you. You also have to accept that, whether you like it or not, the media and other uninformed people are going to view you as credible and knowledgable. Like the comparison to sports athletes, you become something of a role model based upon what people associate you with.

The one thing that bugged me about your tepid response to the media when they asked for something on Geauga Lake is that you easily could have pointed them in the direction of someone that cared when given the opportunity. I understand you're under no obligtion to defend each and every amusement park, but you could have done something for the people that do care about what's happening without having sold yourself out or violated your own beliefs on the matter. Call it throwing the Geauga Lake supporters a bone- it would have been cool if you did something that you weren't obligated to do but knew would matter to some people that take part in the discussions around here.

As I've maintained, this isn't any kind of personal attack, it's just an observation for you and everyone else to take for what you feel it to be worth.

^^ Fair enough, on all counts. Except that I'm sure a lot of people both here on this site and off would care if something happened to you. Self included!

We might even get you a front seat on that 500 foot Intamin Cedar Point is building behind Gemini. (With apologies to Mr. Scott.)

*** This post was edited by Ensign Smith 10/11/2007 11:52:04 PM ***

But the media got the story they wanted anyway. They found plenty of people. I got a phone call between meetings during my day job looking for people to shoot that afternoon. What was I supposed to do? Even if I were to comment on my own behalf, you wouldn't have liked my opinion anyway. Like I said, at least they got that "we're losing a lot of sleep goof" to say what they were looking for.

I appreciate that you think the world of this site, and I think you nailed exactly what I'm most proud of: The site has roped in the anti-enthusiast enthusiasts. I take pride in being the counter-culture, or at least the online alternative to the fleshy version.