Cedar Point's Maverick will not open with park

Who cares! No biggie! Come on

It will open a little late, NOT A RARITY for a new rollercoaster.

In the end, the ride will be better (well, hopefully) and more reliable. Are we all lawyers now? Look at the EXTREME FIASCO that was Magnum XL-200 back in '89. Anyone remember that? All those broken noses, hurt backs, and for holy hoohaas sake, no underwheels!

Intamin is a great coaster firm, and I think build the best steel coasters around. Yeah, B&M's are more reliable, but they are all basically the same (I think Great Bear is the best and most unique beemer I've been on).

So anyway, has GCI started the design for CPs compact, dueling, 6-train woodie with 4 tunnels on each side, station fly bys and thrus?

B&M desighed Raptor and Mantis those rides seem to run better than the three Intamin coasters its suprising but the difference is huge.

B&M's Rides are great and more reliable

1. Their rides worked better than Intamin.
2. Thier rides operate better
3. No opening delays.

It seems that Intamin's rides have less reliable than B&Ms but the same because of Intamins ride design.

Knowing quite a bit about manufacturing and material production, this is likely not a simple problem to correct. Some of you talk as though you shove a piece of steel into a machine, press a few buttons and out pops a new piece of track. Seriously... does that sound at all plausible? There are many things to be considered here- availability of material, availability of the machinery necessary to manufacture the parts, setting up the machinery with the proper tooling, painting of the completed parts, inspection/quality control, shipping prep and the actual shipping process. And then you've got to install the parts, conduct testing, etc. This isn't like changing the tire on your car.

Coaster Lover said:
You know, with the exception of Cedar Point, you really don't hear that many parks complaining about problem Intamins (Volcano and Xcelerator being the only two, however, after a season or two, both are VERY reliable and VERY well running rides), you could throw Kingda Ka in there too, but again, now that it has had a season or two to break in, it's running quite well. I personally think Cedar Point is pushing Intamin too far... let Intamin go back to building hypers and jr. hypers for a while and their rep will be right back up.

Give me a break. Volcano had to run an entire season with half the seats missing before they could get it working right. Kingda Ka had a major breakdown resulting in severe track damage that shut the ride down for an extended amount of time. Several impulse coasters had to have additional supports added. Superman at SFDL and Superman at SFNE have BOTH had riders fall out of the train. The brakes failed on Superman at SFNE. The lift chain on SFA's Superman has broke several times. Stealth had a major breakdown shortly after it opened. Oh, and then there's those minor incidents on Perilous Plunge and Hydro where people were ejected and KILLED.

But yeah, I'm sure all of that is Cedar Point's fault for pushing Intamin too far. (rolls eyes)

- Aaron K

(edit - changed SFA to SFDL - thanks Intamin Fan!)

*** This post was edited by ColumbusCoaster 5/9/2007 9:55:07 PM ***

Intamin's version of Stealth not the dutchman that vekoma has made but'both rides had issues the Stealth at Great America had a low hourly capacity and Intamin's Had delays. Wierd.

*** This post was edited by Twistercoasterman 5/9/2007 11:23:51 PM ***

^ Different Stealth.

http://www.rcdb.com/id3081.htm

Why would the parts have to be put on a boat? Isn't IntaRide in Maryland?

I'm pretty sure the parts are manufactured in Germany.

^ Intamin is in Switzerland. The track is made in Hungary. They don´t manufacture track in Germany. The german division of Intamin is actually building rolling stock and/or parts for it. Intamin is also a huwe provider for transport systems in gardens and leisure parks. (park trains, chairlifts, monorails,etc) that stuff is done in Germany as well. See here: http://www.intamin.de/intamin.htm

IntaRide however is located in the USA and I am pretty sure that they manufacture the track there as well. There must be a reason after all that they call it Intaride so prominently.*** This post was edited by tricktrack 5/9/2007 11:46:53 AM ***

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super7* said:
The blame lies slightly with Cedar Fair also..............they want everything to be sensationalistic and prototype at Cedar Point. Bigger, faster, etc. instead of building moderate rides with successful technology.

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From dictionary.com:
pro·to·type noun, verb -typed, -typ·ing.
–noun 1. the original or model on which something is based or formed.

Let's see...

Raptor - not the first B&M invert, so not a prototype
Mantis - not the first B&M stand-up, so not a prototype
Power Tower - not the first S&S multi-tower, so not a prototype
Millennium Force - first "giga" but essentially just a bigger hyper; not the first Intamin hyper, so not a prototype
Wicked Twister - not the first Intamin impulse, so not a prototype
Top Thrill Dragster - not the first Intamin rocket, so not a prototype
maXair - not the first Huss giant frisbee, so not a prototype
SkyHawk - not the first S&S Screamin' Swing, so not a prototype

So please, point out all of the prototypes they have built. Bigger and faster versions of existing rides are NOT prototypes. And with the exception of Dragster, all of those rides were built using successful technology. The only thing remotely prototypical is MF's cable lift, but that hardly makes the whole ride a prototype.

And what exactly does any of that have to with Maverick? You claim CF wants "everything to be sensationalistic and prototype at Cedar Point...instead of building moderate rides" yet completely ignore that (1.) Maverick is easily the most "moderate" coaster they have built in a long time, and (2.) it's in no way a prototype (see: California Screamin' - both have a launch and a simulated lift using LSMs).

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super7* said:
Intamin is at fault for poor design and simply for their willingness to take on these prototype projects.

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Once again, Intamin did NOT design the ride, Stengel did. Ingenieur Büro Stengel GmbH and Intamin are two separate companies. Stengel does the design and calculations, Intamin builds it. Coaster has a major mechanical malfunction - blame Intamin. Coaster needs to be modified before it ever opens because the forces are too great - blame Stengel.

- Aaron K

Cedar Point does want everything to be sensationalistic- how else can you explain their constant quest to build the tallest, the fastest, etc.? Maverick doesn't make any strides to be the "-est" anything but Maverick is clearly the exception to the rule. Magnum, Mantis, Millennium Force, TTD- all those rides have pushed the envelope, so to speak.

And where is this sudden desire to blame Stengel coming from? Stengel designs a lot of Intamin rides but he also designs a lot of B&M and Gerstlauer rides as well, and none of them have the problems that Intamin rides have. Furthermore, this Intamin ride is being sold to Cedar Point through IntaRide, therefore they are responsible for how things turn out, regardless of whether or not they are directly responsible. That's the burden of being a broker of any kind- you make a lot of money without getting your hands very dirty, but you also assume the blame if something goes wrong.

Think of it this way- if the stereo in your new car breaks, you don't go to Harman Kardon, Bose or Mark Levinson to pay for the repair, you go to the company that made the car by going to the dealer that sold you the car. Perhaps Lexus didn't make the stereo but they are responsible for it working right because it was installed in one of their cars.

Intamin is really looking like a joke of an engineering firm. Compared to many projects a roller coaster is not all that complex, yet they consistently botch things, major things. It's not as if they pump out hundreds of coasters per year and only a handful are having problems. They produce a handful of coasters each year and a huge percentage of them are having problems. They're apparently staying afloat because the coaster industry is quite specialized, but if they were making automobiles, aircraft, or buildings with these type of consistent problems they would be hurting. Maybe they should search a bit farther north than Switzerland for their engineers.

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Cedar Point does want everything to be sensationalistic- how else can you explain their constant quest to build the tallest, the fastest, etc.? Maverick doesn't make any strides to be the "-est" anything but Maverick is clearly the exception to the rule.

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Exactly. So what does them building "-est" coasters in the past have anything to do with the problems of Maverick? They decide to build a regular old coaster that will not break any records, and when there is a major problem with it, we've got people trying to blame it on their past history of pushing the envelope. That makes no sense at all. If they were building a Scrambler this year and had major problems with it, would you bring up their history of pushing the envelope and say "That's what they get for always trying to build the tallest, the fastest, etc." Makes about as much sense when talking about Maverick.

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And where is this sudden desire to blame Stengel coming from? Stengel designs a lot of Intamin rides but he also designs a lot of B&M and Gerstlauer rides as well, and none of them have the problems that Intamin rides have.

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I really don't have a desire to blame anyone, I just think Intamin is getting bashed in this one particular instance when it might not be warranted. We're not talking about a structural or mechanical failure, we're talking about a design flaw or miscalculation, and I think that falls on the designer, not the manufacturer. Make no mistake, I'm well aware of all the problems Intamin's have had in the past (see my response to Coaster Lover) but those have all been mechanical, structural, or restraint design and would definitely make them responsible. I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.

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Think of it this way- if the stereo in your new car breaks, you don't go to Harman Kardon, Bose or Mark Levinson to pay for the repair, you go to the company that made the car by going to the dealer that sold you the car. Perhaps Lexus didn't make the stereo but they are responsible for it working right because it was installed in one of their cars.

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Do you think the dealer or Lexus is going to spend a lot of time trying to fix a stereo that does not work? I'm talking there is something wrong with the stereo, not with the installation. I'm pretty sure they would just swap it out with a new one and send the faulty one back to Harmon Kardon, Bose, etc. for credit or a replacement. Just because the customer doesn't deal directly with the manufacturer doesn't mean it isn't their responsibilty. Same applies in Maverick's case. CP may go to Intamin first, but if the heartline needs to be modified or removed, Intamin probably has to go back to Stengel for the new design.

- Aaron K

It doesn't matter what's wrong with the ride, whether it be track needing to be replaced or the lap bars installed backwards. If there is a problem with the ride that prevents it from opening when the park expected (and likely advertised), there is blame to be placed and as the ride's manufacturer/broker, Intamin/IntaRide are the ones to blame. They messed up. There's no way around that.

Do I think that a Lexus dealer is going to spend a lot of time trying to fix a stereo that doesn't work? Are you serious? Do you honestly think someone that dropped 50 large on a Lexus is going to say to the dealer, "It's okay that the stereo doesn't work, I know you gave it your best shot so I'll just drive in silence." Hell, people that buy cars costing 1/5th as much are going to put up a huge fight over anything about their new car not working properly. And no one is going to go to the dealer and ask the service technician for Bose's toll-free number- they're going to expect the dealer to get the problem solved, and chances are they're not going to care how it's done, as long as it's done. Customers don't want to deal with a myriad of companies when trying to get a problem resolved- they pay someone to do it for them, and expect that everything will work out in the end. It's why people go to Ford and buy a Mustang rather than building their own muscle cars.

ColumbusCoaster, I have to make a correction on something you said earlier. No one has ever fallen out of SFA's Superman. That was Darien Lake's version, which is before any seatbelts where added. As usual Intamin blamed the problem on the riders weight. This has been a common factor in some of the Intamin accidents--people are overweight according to their restraint designs.

Now the chainlift thing, that is correct. It broke two chainlifts, and Jeff was on S:ROS at SFA the first time it happened.

Going back to Volcano the Blast Coaster, in the 'you think Cedar Point is having problems department,' VtBC didn't open up until August! It opened up with only half the seats and the park admitted (someone correct if I'm wrong) that they didn't have enough power the first year to properly launch it and Flight of Fear. This is obviously why that guy from several months ago mentioned he (or someone he knew) was installing a dedicated power line for Steel Venom from Geauga Lake. Volcano has been running like a champ though ever since.

If anyone would like to file a protest or picket outside of the North American headquarters, they are located in Glen Burnie, MD, about 1/2-hour from SFA. If you've ever been upset about all the crap that has happened with the Premier coasters (like last year), another fifteen minutes or so and you're at their headquarters. And if ever hated Gerstlauer or S&S, from SFA, it would take you about thirty-minutes (maybe a little bit more) to get to their North American distributor. I'm just kidding of course.

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If there is a problem with the ride that prevents it from opening when the park expected (and likely advertised), there is blame to be placed and as the ride's manufacturer/broker, Intamin/IntaRide are the ones to blame. They messed up. There's no way around that.

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You questioned earlier why the desire to blame Stengel but you certainly seem hell-bent on blaming Intamin.

What exactly did Intamin mess up? Working with CP? Working with Stengel? Building the ride per Stengel's specs? I think what you are failing to grasp is I'm trying to discuss who's originally responsible for the problem, NOT who CP will go to in order to get the problem fixed. Of course CP will go to Intamin, that's who they bought the ride from! CP probably doesn't care if it's Intamin's or Stengel's fault they just want the ride fixed. But see, I do not work for CP, this is not a CP-owned website, and I actually DO have in an interest in who is ultimately responsible for what happened.

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Do I think that a Lexus dealer is going to spend a lot of time trying to fix a stereo that doesn't work? Are you serious? Do you honestly think someone that dropped 50 large on a Lexus is going to say to the dealer, "It's okay that the stereo doesn't work, I know you gave it your best shot so I'll just drive in silence."

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Wow, could you have possibly mis-interpreted what I said any more??? Go back and read my post again. I did and cannot for the life of me figure out how you came up with your response. What I said was the dealer was not going to spend a lot of time trying to fix a stereo that was mechanically defective, they would simply remove the bad one, install a new one, and the customer would be on their way. Then the dealer would send the defective one back to the manufacturer for a replacement or a credit. Not once did I say or even remotely imply that the dealer would not help the customer.

You seem to only be focusing on the customer's perspective -- CP going to Intamin to get a problem fixed, car customer going to the dealer to get a problem fixed. No one is arguing that's what happens. But that's never the whole story. In the car analogy, once the car dealer has replaced the defective stereo and the customer is happy, the story doesn't just end there. It might for the customer, but the dealer will still go back to the stereo manufacturer to get compensated. In the case of Maverick, I'm looking at it as an interested third party with no stake in what happens, while you seem to be adopting the view of CP.

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ColumbusCoaster, I have to make a correction on something you said earlier. No one has ever fallen out of SFA's Superman. That was Darien Lake's version, which is before any seatbelts where added.

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Oops, you're absolutely right, thanks for pointing that out. I went back and edited my previous post.

- Aaron K

Rollergater yuor right about one of my statments. I didn't know there was another Stealth. I'll correct want I said.

I think you guys think you know more about the responsibilities of each firm than you actually do.

I think of Intamin as the BMW of the rollercoaster industry. They are not known for their reliability. But when they run, they are the ultimate machines. B&M would be like Lexus. they play it safe and just draw upon existing technology, giving them a bland, lifeless reputation (that lasts forever)

There is a price for pushing the envelope...

"Let's see...

Raptor - not the first B&M invert, so not a prototype
Mantis - not the first B&M stand-up, so not a prototype
Power Tower - not the first S&S multi-tower, so not a prototype
Millennium Force - first "giga" but essentially just a bigger hyper; not the first Intamin hyper, so not a prototype
Wicked Twister - not the first Intamin impulse, so not a prototype
Top Thrill Dragster - not the first Intamin rocket, so not a prototype
maXair - not the first Huss giant frisbee, so not a prototype
SkyHawk - not the first S&S Screamin' Swing, so not a prototype"

I disagree with the above statement. In a biography of the history of Arrow, Karl Bacon [in reference to Magnum] said that adding ten feet to a coaster doesn't double your problem, it makes it exponential. Clearly 1989 was a different year than 2000 and beyond, but I still wouldn't take away the "prototype" label from Millennium or Dragster. Both are absolute engineering feats and just the shear height makes them a prototype as they were surely copied by their successors.

I would encourage you guys to get the whole truth before pointing the finger. I realize it's frustrating, trust me.. it is for me to. I'm making my first trip to CP ever on Monday and was really looking forward to riding Maverick. Life goes on. I don't think we have the whole truth yet, so make your judgments as things unfold.

Thanks for reading,
Ryan