KKK plans protest at Dollywood on unofficial gay day

I can agree to disagree. That's not a problem for me. Sorry, I don't know if you were referring to me or someone else. And I can empathize about the crowds and your point there.

Hate, however, is used by some as a respectable vehicle when religion is mixed in. That is what I object to. We clearly have a separation of church and state clause in the federal constitution of our government - it's pretty easy to me to understand why it is that way. When religious folk say I can't marry, or ___ because I'm gay - that is way more than a simple disagreement. Marriage is a civil issue, not a religious one. Therefore, it has nothing to do with religion. That's a fact, it is not debatable. There are tons of case law in our court system there to prove it further if wish to hunt for it.

The bigger point being, live and let live.

As I have said in an earlier discussion...you folks have played right into the game of controversy that extremists of all groups want. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feeling pride in either being Gay or being Religious is not a problem, unless people make it such.

So what now, does Coaster Buzz get divided between Gay and Non-Gay members? Or do we go on doing what we do best, enjoying amusement parks and riding roller coasters

Let's be clear on one thing: Anyone who "hates" is not a Christian. About three-quarters of this country calls themselves "Christian," but how many of those people do you think really try to live like Christ? How many have a prayer life, go to church every week and are involved in charitable work therein, etc.? Not many. *Those* are the people who are screwing it up for other Christians.

"Real" Christians would be so much better off downplaying the entire issue in favor of personal relationships.

However, coasterfreaky, just want you to know that anything is debateable. Christians believe that God set down the "rules" for marriage in the Garden of Eden. He said man should leave his parents and join his wife, and become one flesh, and that joining would eventually symbolize the joining of Christ and the church. So you can see how, for many, marriage is a sacred thing and messing with it can be frightening.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous for me to sit here and not write anything.

For those of you who still insist there is a gay agenda, get it through your thick straight heads, there is NO gay agenda! Wow! What a revelation!

We just want to live our lives like normal people. Go to work, get paid, go home, eat dinner, watch tv, take care of our families (seems a lot like everyone else's lives). Believe it or not, "coming out" doesn't get you connected to the "hive brain" to find out the hidden gay agenda, because there is none! We fight for our rights because we are NOT treated equal.

Next time SFLAKE thinks we are out to spew an agenda, he should really consider what that would take. How connected can 10% of the population be? Yeah, we get special "gay" e-mails from Barbara Streisand who tells us all what our next agenda target is. By the way, the special e-mails that tell us what to do are in pink or purple (depending on urgency).

You don't have to embrace, you don't have to believe that the religious right is correct (even though in the 1600's the Catholic church actually performed gay weddings), and you don't have to even tolerate. But try to understand the basic civil rights you get when you sign your marriage contract with the state: you get to visit your wife / husband in the hospital, make choices for them, and over 1300 benefits that our current president wants to put into the constitution in order to take that away from a group of people (first time the US Constitution will be used that way)! That's right, legal marriage is a civil agreement between you and the state, nothing more. The "way god intended" is to be recognized by your religious organization, not the state. Remember, most religious groups don't allow divorces, but all states do!

I could go on and on, but frankly, I am tired of justifying my equal rights (even though I don't have them yet).

Can't we all just ride coasters and enjoy parks?

A very good point earlier in this thread.....it is legal for atheists to marry in this country, but not gays (who may or may not worship god).

I am a religious person, but the fact is the bible and other religious books of other faiths were written by man. They are written in old language that may be interpreted as one wants. There are common sense "sins" that there is no question are harmful to other human beings......murder, theft, etc.

But i fail to see where homosexuality is harmful to others in socitey. Some of the lifestyles that homosexuals choose are harmful (uncontrolled sex, drugs, alcohol abuse), just as some of the lifestyles of heterosexuals (uncontrolled sex, drugs, alcohol abuse, etc), but that has NOTHING to do with their sexual preference as much as poor judgement in how to conduct their life.

If the "bible" states that one must procreate (which is the bible beaters normal reasoning that homosexuality is wrong), then ALL heteorsexuals that use birth control are equally wrong...........

In my opinion, we have the most inept, corrupt Presidental administration in modern history. Misuse of power for financial reasons, discrimination, repeated lies to the American public. But the following will vote for him because he stands for "morals".......

Funny. The Christ of the Bible went to the hated peoples of his day (tax collectors, harlots) with a message of love while the sanctimonious, backward religious leaders of the day considered everyone who didn't do as they did beneath their dignity.

Who has it all wrong today?

-CO

Yeah, Playa, but Christ also told the sinners what they were doing wrong (for example, he came down on the "woman at the well" for living with a guy and not being married to him).

Christ got results because the sinners could tell he cared.

Den,
Not singling you out… I just wanted to respond, mostly because your post caught my eye. I also think Moosh hit it on the head when he said he was impressed with how civilized this thread is. (Well, for the most part.) This topic and it's tone has been refreshing to see.

I agree with you that today’s Bible is pretty cut and dry when it comes to homosexuality. The basis of Christian faith states that the Bible is the infallible word of God. But to many, that’s a tough pill to swallow when the bible has been written, translated, diluted, revised and updated throughout thousands of years by man.

That having been said, I had a very strict upbringing in the faith myself and I live my life by a very high moral code. Your statements about developing a non confrontational relationship with a non Christian (or someone leading an “immoral” life) and leading them to their own personal relationship with God are things that I have heard since I was a wee little lad.

But here’s where the frustration comes….The struggle that a gay man (or Woman I suppose) fights constantly is, frankly, overwhelming. A homosexual person is told that they must somehow shelve feelings that, quite honestly, they can’t control. In many church’s eyes, if they at all acknowledge the feelings, they are sinners and somehow unworthy of God’s love.

The Bible talks about how sex is a very natural gift that God gave us to express our love for each other…. Like you said, the book of Song of Solomon is a testimony to that. But imagine hearing or being told over and over that in order to find the path to God, or find true salvation, that you must forgo that very gift of sexual expression God gave.

I know you can see where I am coming from. I guarantee you that if given the choice, most gay persons would not choose a life of exclusivity, stress, lack of trust, uncertainty and isolation that the lifestyle can bring. However, who we are attracted to as humans is not at all a choice. It’s what we do with the cards we were dealt that becomes the choice… just as you said. I doubt we’ll ever have an answer as to why certain individuals that God created must, by biblical standards, live a life of chastity (which, my fellow, is impossible... the Bible even states that it is not good for a man to be alone.)

In my eye, it is as much of a sin for a gay person to enter into a straight relationship with the hopes of somehow managing their God given feelings. It is unfair to the other partner, simply because it leads to a life of hardships that (more often than not) end in divorce or with horrific outcomes. I have many friends that entered straight relationships in the hopes of curbing their desires for a relationship with a member of the same sex. Each one of them ended on a very sad and hurtful note. But there are churches that literally hold seminars and classes to try and “cure” homosexuals by steering them into what they call “healthy” (straight) relationships. In these classes they feel they must constantly scrutinize and monitor the persons, for fear they will use the group as a means to make a “hook up.” Oy.

It is all a very sticky wicket. In my recent past, I began to forgo the denomination that I have attended my entire life, simply because I saw the tragic toll that their preaching was taking on those who happened to be gay.

Basically, the double standard exists that a person must be worthy of stepping into the church before they can be accepted. Gay people who want to attend a mainstream Christian congregation, must remain closeted or risk being chastised by members irregardless of whether they are active in the lifestyle or not. They must sit through sermons geared at family values, which they cannot relate to. They must observe the great friendships that evolve out of that church congregation from afar, because many members will fear embracing the gay member because of ridiculous whispers and connotations that brings.

On the flip side, if they are open in their everyday lives, it brings a tremendous fear in a church atmosphere. The fear of being “found out”, ostracized, or even excommunicated can nearly drive a person insane. But that is exactly the type of torment so many churches place on homosexuals.

So I guess my question is, why does the church think God chose to punish certain individuals in that way? Why seclude and torment a select group?

I don’t think he did. I think the big scheme of things is much grander than any of our little pea brains will ever be able to understand. If we knew the answers then life would be a lot simpler. We would not be staging confrontational civil rights movements across our country, nor would there be constant wars (all religious based mind you) being fought across the planet.

But I stand by my original post. Until the gay community embraces the church, and until the church embraces the gay community, no resolution to this subject will be found.

It’s all very sad to me, and really disheartening. Simply because it leaves those like me… who happen to be on both sides of the fence… in therapy trying to deal with it all, and trying to find my faith in the process.

As far as the original topic at hand…. IMO the KKK needs the gay community… they need the Carsons of the world to help update their sheet couture. I mean c’mon, those outfits are so 80 years ago.

*** This post was edited by Shaggy 5/20/2004 12:16:58 PM ***

Shaggy brings up a very good point: "But I stand by my original post. Until the gay community embraces the church, and until the church embraces the gay community, no resolution to this subject will be found. "

I don't know if I would use the term "embraces" on either side... "Accepts" is a better term in my opinion... but the point is... neither side wants to give an inch, but yet expects the other side to simply roll over and play dead.

You want gay marriages... fine, have them... while I personally do not agree with that, fine... Its not up to me to make the moral judgement. However don't scream "discrimination" if a given church will not perform such a cerimony. By that, you are therefore saying that the Church must throw out its doctrine to conform to yours.

At the church I go to, homosexuals would be welcomed to attend by the pastors and the congregation (though I can't say they would be welcomed by all of the congregation... Heck... many in the congregation would have a problem with me... I mean, I actually watch TV for ENTERTAINMENT value, including REALITY TV... I do not think that secular music is BAD (I like Irish Folk (i.e. Drinking and Pub) songs in particular)... I ascribe to the theory of Evolution, though directed by a devine hand... I like the movies in the Star Wars saga... I go to sporting events... I have even been known go to to amusement parks on SUNDAY afternoons!) HOWEVER... neither pastor would perform a marriage cerimony between two members of the same sex. They would neither perform a cerimony between a man and a woman who are living together before marriage... or a man and a woman who are basically non Christian (in the respect of not following church doctrine). Basically, they will not perform the cerimony if you are not following the doctrine of the denomination. Can't speak for them on same sex marriages, but as for the others (co habitation, "non Christian") the attitude is... "you can get married... but not a "Church" wedding... that's what the JP is for."

On this whole marriage issue... If you can find a church that would perform a same sex marriage... fine. Not a Church I would go to... but fine. However, don't cry foul when a Church, based on its doctrine, refuses to perform such a cerimony. Marriage between "co habitating" men and women is legal... but Churches are not forced to perform such cerimonies if it is not in line with their doctrine... same sex marriages should fall into the same category.

Just keep one thing in mind... You want equal rights... fine... That means that along with same sex marriages you will have same sex divorces. Can't just up and walk away if you want to go your separate way... Call in the Lawyers and go through the same thing that hetro-couples have to go through if you decide to call it quits.*** This post was edited by SLFAKE 5/20/2004 12:46:32 PM ***

Shaggy, your post is very well thought out, and I agree it's all really too much to understand. To me, (committed) homosexuality seems like a "victimless crime," and I don't know the reasons God has for disallowing it. But if I want to adhere to my faith, I *must* believe what is in the Bible. It was written and translated by men, but we still believe it's the inspired word of God.

I actually know of a group of "former" gay people who have become Christians, and have agreed to a life of chastity in order to obey God's word. That seems to me an act of faith on the level of a monk or priest, and I commend anyone who can do as such. Having gay tendencies is without a doubt an onus on one's life, and I think people like the above will receive a great reward in heaven.

But as for the whole issue of constantly bickering with gay people - I'm done with it, basically. I once fought with a gay friend over a series of weeks, and we never saw each others' sides. Though I don't currently have any gay friends, I've decided next time I get one, I'm just going to let the issue slide, and God can figure out what to do about the sticky stuff.

You do have gay friends, Den....right here on Cbuzz

Ya know, I knew someone was going to say that.

I meant friends I actually see in real life.

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Den said:
Yeah, Playa, but Christ also told the sinners what they were doing wrong (for example, he came down on the "woman at the well" for living with a guy and not being married to him).

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Came down on her?
He brought up her marital situation to reveal he was a prophet (John 4:16-19) not to mention she was one of the very, very few people to which he revealed himself openly as the Christ! (John 4:25,26) Even his closest disciples didn't hear firsthand confirmation until the Transfiguration!

You'd better crack open the Good Book 'fore you step to me, my friend.

-'Playa

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But if I want to adhere to my faith...

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Here's my question then, Den, and this is not meant to be sarcastic or jackassed in my usual sense... Who decides what "my" or "your" faith is?

That's the journey I had to take, and it sounds like Shaggy is going through that to a certain degree as well. "My" faith is not dictated by the Bible at all. Influenced, yes, but not dictated. Any other way and I couldn't really call it "mine."

Just a personal viewpoint, not one I expect anyone else to have.

Coastaplaya-All discrimnation is wrong!!! What happened to black people in this country was wrong and the discrimnation that still exists is wrong. But also equally as wrong is discrimnation that takes place today for entrance to colleges or employment where people with better scores/grades are discrimnated soley because of the color of there skin!! And alot of these victims arent white but in fact are asians who who as a group have had the highest test scores in college entrance exams.

Was wrong? Nope. Is wrong. There's a lot of unlearning left to do.

No system is perfect in righting wrongs. But when it's in place to undo a systemic pattern of wrong, it's a lesser evil at worst.

And why do people bellyache about a few privileged kids with good educations and enough money to file lawsuits who don't land in the school of their choice while millions of other kids still can't get the basic education they need for a shot at a decent life? And what are these shut-out kids ethnicities?

It's a shortsighted and stupid argument left to talk radio cowards who assiduously screen their callers.

-CO
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 5/20/2004 2:30:54 PM ***

Jeff, just because "my" faith is the same faith that millions of people have had in the past doesn't mean it's invalid in some way. My VW Jetta is my car, and I've made it my own - even though it was pre-owned.

Playa - yes, Jesus revealed to the woman at the well he was the Christ, but there's no question, he was not in approval of her lifestyle. If he simply wanted her to know he was a prophet, he could have told her her birthdate or something. Please don't accuse me of not knowing the Bible.

Geeze... we're all over the map here... first the Klan VS Gay Day at Dollywood... Then RIGHT vs Left... then Religion.... now Afirmative action as it applies to college applications.

On that last part (afirmative action that is)... I've always said "Equal Rights, yes... Special Rights, no"

Den: Did he give her a fire-and-brimstone "Repent of your sins NOW" lecture? Did he picket the well? And are you actually gonna say the Christ should perform some parlor trick or perform a guessing-game booth staffer's job? He told her something no one short of a prophet would know. While he didn't give her lifestyle a big thumbs up, he still felt her worthy--even as a sinner and a despised Samaritan (oooh, a pariah of the day!)--to gave her insight he gave no one else to that date. For crying out loud, think this through! Yeesh!

SLFAKE: The denied med-school applicants can still get accepted at another school or reapply at the tony one they wanna attend. Now as for the education of the many versus the privileged few...wassup with that?

-CO

Playa,

I believe his exact quote to the woman was "Go now, and sin no more."

Shaggy
*** This post was edited by Shaggy 5/20/2004 3:06:00 PM ***