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It doesn't matter if a person is 16 or 18. They are still immature at that age. Has anyone heard of frats, for goodness sakes? When does one become mature? Some people are more mature than others. It's not the age, but it's the individual. The more immature people aren't 18 though. Keep on going up the age ladder, and you will find more mature people. So, just put the 16 year olds doing the games, or food. So, let me get this straight with alcohol. Are they saying that a person that has drank alcohol within a day / week / month can't work at an amusement park / carnival or are they saying that if they check you at the time you are working, than you can't run a ride? I hope it's the second one. There are people that are over 21 that they do work at amusement parks and carnivals that can drink legally. I like that they now have inspections before every business day, but what about staffing, and time? Will they have enough 18 year olds, or not? 18 year olds are the college kids now. They don't have a schedule like high school kids. High school kids can be there late and early in the season. The problem with these regional parks is that they aren't year round (duh), and thus who wants a job for half the year, and than they have to find a new job. I really hope if you work for an amusement park that you don't have to keep on interviewing every year. They know you from last year, and they just let you come back. Could someone tell me if they know that, or not? That would be such a pain.
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Does anyone really believe that having someone two years older at the controls would have prevented this accident? I think this is just a knee-jerk reaction from the Kentucky lawmakers so they can tell their constituents they have taken steps to make things safer, when in actuality they have no idea what they are doing.
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I kinda agree wtih Spinout. The better course of action is to have beenter training and better policies in place. Also good suppervision to any Goof Offs and NO CELL PHONE talking while operating a ride! Chuck
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I've worked with 16 and 17 year old ride operators who are more responsible and mature than the college students. If anything, the fault is with the ride operator training--I don't think I've seen operators at any park watch a drop ride during the entire cycle. I guess these rides lull ops into a false sense of security... between the harnesses, seat belts, and magnetic brakes, it's hard to imagine what could go wrong.
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^^^^When does one become mature? About 25, according to neuropsychologists. That's about the time when the frontal cerebral cortex - the region of the brain responsible for planning and decision-making - finishes developing.On the other hand, some people never mature, so it is sort of a rhetorical question. Edited for carrot correction.
*** This post was edited by Ensign Smith 3/7/2008 1:20:08 PM ***
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Well according to Spinout, the answer is to outlaw fraternity members, since they're all, according to him, immature.
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Considering the people who post on this website (who I know are adults), I'm not sure that this is the proper place to debate what qualifies as "mature."
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If having fun counts as being immature....count me in on being immature.
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Hooray for do-nothing, feel-good legislation! Sad to see the girl's father actually feels placated by this. Trust me, pal, your slam-dunk lawsuit against Six Flags will do more to change their operating procedures than any toothless legislation will. All this does is make it slightly harder for Kentucky parks to staff rides. It doesn't compel them to train their employees any better, nor does it compel them to inspect their rides any better.
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Seriously though, if your old enough to drive a car I think your old enough to operate an amusement ride. Its a matter of management and training if you ask me.
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Many 16- and 17-year olds are new to the workforce, and with the proper training and management can be quite responsible ride operators. Many 18-year olds have been in the workforce a few years already and are quite jaded and don't give a crap.
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I'm turning 16 in two weeks, and I think I dont think that I would be ready to handle operating a ride, becausse I know I am easily distracted from the task at hand, but I dont like driving because it holds too much risk everytime I get on the road, and partly because of my backseat driving parents.
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I do believe the two year difference is a lot. Anybody 18 years old or a staff member in a high school can tell you that. The difference in maturity from being a freshman to senior is huge. Many things change in that time. First is getting your drivers license. For better or for worse, this builds responsibility of driving a car and adding a whole lot more freedom and independence from when Mom drove you everywhere or you took your bike. Second is getting your first job. Whether it be working at McDonald's, being a busboy at a restaurant, or being a cashier at a retail store, at age 16 most kids get their first experience at getting a job and that again adds a lot of responsibility. Third is working on your ACT's and applying for college. This is another stage where kids face reality that they are growing up and going into the real world. At age 16 you're still a sophomore in high school while at age 18 majority of kids are graduating and moving to a college dorm to live on their own. The independence factor and maturity grow greatly. The presence of Mommy and Daddy to the rescue decreases and you are even required to make your own decisions legally. Driving a car is far different from operating a ride. Instead of you getting from point A to point B safely, you're dealing with thousands of people every hour at a repetitive task that can be grueling. Maturity and alertness are key and I believe that those key skills develop greatly in those two years. I'm 19 right now and worked at CP for one year so far as a ride operator. CP requires you to be 18+ while KI requires 16+ and the differences are very evident when visiting the two parks and watching the employees. Where alcohol and minors fall shouldn't really be related to this. It's a whole other issue that is being faced outside of the amusement parks.
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^At age 16 I was a junior.
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^So... What matters is that there is a difference between those ages. Are there exceptions, of course, but that's what interviews and job performance reviews are for. It's the employers duty to make sure they hire the best.
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You know, you have to be 18 to operate a meat slicer, a cardboard bailer, vote... seems like a no-brainer to me... amazing they're just now making it illegal to be drunk to operate heavy machinery that human beings are riding on.
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With all due respect, a lot more can go wrong with a meat slicer than on a computerized amusement ride.
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What's so computerized about it? The ride itself runs on its own, but getting people in the trains properly and knowing what to do in emergencies is crucial. A computer can only do so much.
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I'm not sure what you have against teenagers, but they're capable of making sure that people are above the height stick and have their restraint all the way down. Honest. As for emergencies, they should be covered in training; again, a 16 or 17 year old is capable of memorizing those procedures. Response to anything outside of normal ride behavior can vary, but I know plenty of adults who have poor decision making ability. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but after working at an amusement park for five years, I can safely say that I've met plenty of minors who I trust more than 18+ employees or even adults. Granted, there are plenty of immature kids out there, but I know of a few adults who have no problem coming into work with a hangover--why should we automatically trust them more? As long as parks properly train and monitor their employees, there should be no problem with minors operating amusement rides. This was a knee-jerk reaction by state legislators which does not solve any of the issues encountered at Kentucky Kingdom.
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Chitown said:^At age 16 I was a junior.
I was a freshman... in college. (I was also too young to be hired in the rides department at Kennywood. You had to be 18 back then.)
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PhantomTails said:
With all due respect, a lot more can go wrong with a meat slicer than on a computerized amusement ride.
Hmm, like what, you could get a cut? lose a finger? lose an arm.... lose both feet? With all do respect.
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Being a past ride operator for 3 seasons with one year being a minor, and 2 years being 18 or older, I think the key would be to higher better people and offer more training prior to the park opening for its first weekend. Hiring people 18 or older is not such a bad idea, but the maturity of people really vary in the age range of a typical ride operator (16-24 or so). I think the first step would be more selective in the interview process and make an effort to choose people that have good performance in school, seem responsible, and a good work ethic. Of course its probably harder to find people as it is, but from my experience there are always few people that quit very early in the season. By going through a more selective process, the cost of having to deal with these poor performers and hiring new people to replace them could be avoided. I think the training process could also be increased, with verbal testing and also more than a day of hands on training of the ride. Of course this is also more costly, but again it might save in the long run. Another issue is the nature of the job is repetitive, so keeping people excited later in the season is something to consider. Most places have socials, special ride sessions, etc to keep people happy, but this is certaintly something that most parks try to address. My home ride was a roller coaster, but I did spend a day operating an intamin gyro drop ride. I am not exactly sure of the differences from an operations point of the view, of the intamin 2nd generation drop ride and the gyro drop ride that I operated. But there were mirrors that you used to watch the vehicle and passengers as it moved up the lift. Although people always scream, there does seem to be some question over why didn't the ride operators notice the situation and stop the ride cycle. The cable would have still caused lacerations, but the more serious injury could have been prevented if the ride was stopped. I think the main issue in this accident was a maintenance related issue. Although I am not sure of how often they check the cable, it either needs further inspection or the people doing the inspection were not doing it properly. There is another concern in that it seems that this type of cable situation, should be something that the ride is designed to detect and if it detects estop the ride. I think if the ride had this logic designed into the ride, it would have prevented the more serious injury, even if ride operators or maintenance did not do their job properly.
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CPJ said:Hmm, like what, you could get a cut? lose a finger? lose an arm.... lose both feet? With all do respect.
Give me a break! This discussion is about accidents caused in part by the negligence of ride operators. While what happened in Kentucky was a tragedy, but the operators had no part in that poor girl losing her foot. On a meat slicer, all you have to do is let your hand slip and you could lose a finger. On most amusement rides, a catastrophic failure would have to occur in order for there to be significant injuries.
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The ride operator did have something to do with it. By simply watching the ride, they could have stopped the ride before it all happened.
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^Out of all the drop towers I have been on, I never saw the ride-ops staring at the cars going up the tower. This isn't an age thing. Only reason it's being brought up is because the one ride-op happened to be 16. What if she was 18? You going to raise the minimum age to 21?
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You're right, it's a park thing. Pay attention next time you ride Power Tower at CP. They look up.
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Been to CP but have never rode PT. I have been to plenty of other parks where ride-ops don't constantly bend their necks the whole time watching the cars go up. If a ride-op did that all day, they wouldn't be able to move their head side to side. If anything, they should have video cameras setup to monitor it.
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You know what, like everything, you have to draw limits somewhere... how many library books, how many items in the 10 items or less line, how many drinks per wristband... there always could be exceptions, but still, you have to make a rule. The US has decided that you are an adult at 18. It's when we vote, it's when we serve in the military. You have to be 18 to operate a meat slicer or a cardboard bailer so you don't hurt yourself, it only seems reasonable you have to be 18 to operate HEAVY machinery- be it a computer controlled ride or a commercially driven truck on the freeway so you don't hurt others. We've drawn the line, it is clear, amusement rides need to follow. It doesn't matter if there is a responsible person who returns all the books they read, or reads up on the politicians and knows who they want to vote for... a line has to be drawn. Limits have to be set, you can not make exceptions for individuals in certain situations, the girl crying on the stand saying she wished she could have done something is the perfect example. Rules have to be made, you have to place a line somewhere. It's not personal, but (phantomtail)... you'll understand when you're older.
*** This post was edited by CPJ 3/9/2008 4:23:32 AM ***
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For the people wondering why they don't look up, you should have read my previous post. On drop zone (drop tower now) at king island, the operator has a mirror that he looks down at that gives him a view of the vehicle as it makes its way up the tower. You look up at the beginning, but eventually have to look at the mirror since that is the only way you can see it. And in all instances, the ride operator should be watching the ride, regardless. An age limit might help, but more selective hiring would be best. More training and also perhaps monthly evaluations as opposed to just a mid year evaluation might help also.
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So while the state Senate is congratulating themselves for passing legislation to improve ride safety, they're cutting 12 percent of the budget of the state agency whose responsibility it is to inspect rides and amusements. But that part isn't the headline.
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^^^^Well, explain why the whole country doesn't set the driving age at 18? A vehicle is one of the most dangerous weapons if involved in a crash. If you can serve your country at 18, why do you have to be 21 to have a beer? Don't sit here and preach that 18 is the magic number because it isn't. *** This post was edited by Chitown 3/9/2008 5:33:47 PM ***
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Never said 18 was the magic number, but it is better than 16. Driving at 16 isn't the best idea and the accident rates at that age show it. And why do you have to be 21 "legally" have a beer? I don't drink, so I don't really debate that one.
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Well.. since you asked... the driving age for the whole country is 18. Anything younger is considered probationary. Not news here people. Ever wonder why they turn your picture a funny direction until you're 18?
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That's not the point. At 16 in alot of states, you are legal to drive a car without adult supervision. Sure, you may have to take a Driver's Ed course, but the fact remains, alot of 16 and 17 year olds can drive without assistance. If a 16 or 17 year old is properly trained on an amusement park ride, they should be able to operate it. It's apples and apples here. I don't know of any difference on a driver's license in Illinois except that you're are under 21 or 21 and over. In that case they just change the color backround.
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One issue parks run into with minors are the crazy hours they can work. They have to take twice as many breaks as everyone else.
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I think 16 is fine for operating rides. I was 16 when I starting running the Whizzer. I was responsible, because our crew had a good supervisor...which is what it really comes down to.
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The difference between a 16 year old driving and a 16 year old running a ride is that when they are running a ride, it's not their life that's in danger. When they are driving, the life threatening activity is to them self. When they are operating a ride, the life threat that they are responsible for is to people they don't even know. Maybe that has something to do with why less mature people shouldn't operate rides. On the other hand, I have met a lot of 16 and 17 year olds who were pretty mature... When I worked at Power Tower during Halloweekend Fridays in 06, I always wondered why I had to look at the ride as it was going up the tower. It was necks straining, but I still did it. Some ride ops didn't (but were supposed to). After this accident, I understand why I had to do that. That poor girl. This story still makes me sick. It's a huge black mark on SF's record no matter who is at fault.
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So did something change where only 16 and 17 year olds drive cars without anyone else on the road? If a 16 year old plows into a minivan with a large family and kills them all, the life threatening is just to himself? Sorry, that makes no sense. Thanks for playing though.
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I wasn't talking about other people on the road, I was talking about the kid. You must have misunderstood me, which is pretty much expected around here. Kid *is not* in danger if he doesn't watch the ride. Kid *is* in danger if he doesn't watch the road. While operating a ride, kid doesn't have as much of an incentive to watch the ride because it is not HIS life that is in danger. If he is driving a vehicle on the road, regardless of who ever else in on the road also, HIS life IS in danger if he doesn't operate the vehicle correctly. How does that make no sense? I want to come up with some smartass one liner to end my comment, but I am better than that.
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Oh please. You can spin it anyway you want. You know damn well that if a 16 year old is driving a car, he or she can end alot of lives while driving that car. Stop thinking that driving a vehicle is less dangerous then pushing buttons on an amusement ride. Like I said, thanks for playing. Please come again.
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I know, you know, and everyone on earth knows that anyone driving a car is putting other drivers in danger. Common sense, right? I am saying that when a kid is running a ride, it's not HIS life that is in danger so maybe he has lees of a reason to watch the ride and do his job properly. That was my point. Read it again. When a kid is running a ride, it's not HIS life that is in danger so maybe he has lees of a reason to watch the ride and do his job properly. I don't know how many other ways I can say it. Did you even READ my post before smart-asssing me? Comprehend? Did you understand the part where I said, "...regardless of who ever else in on the road also..."? Why is it so hard to make one little point on CoasterBuzz without getting smarted off to? Since CoasterBuzz is a smart ass contest lately, I'll play... "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!" HAHAHAHAHA
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Why is it that whenever someone doesn't agree with you, it's because of their lack of reading comprehension? Perhaps you just haven't formulated a very good thesis or they just think you're wrong.
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I really am sorry that you guys think I am trying to be a jerk. It's a very simple point, really. I wasn't talking about other drivers. I was putting my mind inside the head of a teenager and why they would be better drivers than ride operators. That was my original point, and that is still my point. Maybe it's my writing skills, but if you really knew me, you wouldn't think so. If someone disagrees with my opinion that kids are more alert drivers than they are ride operators, than they can say that they disagree. I'll accept that. I was proud of myself for bringing that small tidbit to the discussion. Why do people have to be disrespectful about it?
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Chitown wrote:
"Sorry, that makes no sense.Thanks for playing though."
_____________________________________________
"Oh please. You can spin it anyway you want. You know damn well that if a 16 year old is driving a car, he or she can end alot of lives while driving that car. Stop thinking that driving a vehicle is less dangerous then pushing buttons on an amusement ride. Like I said, thanks for playing. Please come again." __________________________________________________________
Come on. There is disagreeing and there is unnecessary sarcasm. This kind of response is what leads to a defensive retort. It doesn't move the discussion forward and it leads to the kind of culture that many say they do not enjoy.
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^It's a forum on the internet. If someone takes sarcasm personally on the internet, then it's time to step away from the computer.
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If every post is littered with sarcasm, it weakens your argument too.
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I knew what LK was trying to say. Must be a PA thing.
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